Mercedes second seat?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Red Bull Development Drivers that managed to get a Red Bull/STR F1 seat (since 2005):
Vettel
Ricciardo
Kyvat
Verstappen
Liuzzi
Speed
Alguersuari
Buemi
Vergne
Sainz Jr

McLaren/Mercedes development drivers that managed to get a McLaren/Mercedes seat (since 1996):
Hamilton
Magnussen
Vandoorne

That's actually not too bad for Red Bull. It's pretty crap for McMerc as I said.

The second Mercedes seat should go to a youngster. Not an already established driver. Let's get some new talent into a top seat, rather than drop them into a Sauber and then drop them because they weren't World Champion by Silverstone.

But Red Bull have had far more young drivers than anyone else - they should have higher number hitting F1. Having said that - they've brought a lot into F1 but how many have stuck around? Vettel and Ricciardo are the only ones with any longevity (although Verstappen will be around for a while yet).

[Akrapovic]

Red bull do have more young drivers than anyone else, but it should be noted that RBR F1 program started in 2005, and McMercs list is a decade longer, from 1996. They'd have a lot longer to bring drivers in, but have a long history of not bothering to do so.

RBR certainly do have a bad habit of dropping drivers quickly. Too quickly in most cases. But at least those drivers got a chance at F1. Kyvat is about to start year 5, Liuzzi did 8. That isn't too bad, although some others were far less fortunate. If you're a McLaren or Mercedes development driver, then you better start watching some DTM races on YouTube and get used to those faces. That's your future co-workers there.

Red Bull are rightly criticised for the rate at which they drop young drivers. Nobody seems to have noticed that the McMerc drivers don't even get far enough to get dropped. That deserves equal criticism, and it's why I'd personally prefer the second Mercedes seat go to one of the talents they have on contract, rather than just playing musical chairs with Fernando again. Fernando gets a lot of praise for apparently being the best driver on the grid, but he doesn't seem to be able to get in the right car at the right time, and when he is, the relationships are going sour.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

It's annoying to see all these people with these raging hardons for ever younger drivers, it's almost like having experience is more of a curse than a blessing nowadays.
I don't know where this sudden aversion for experience has come from, but the sport is most certainly all the poorer for it, with the exception of Verstappen, ofcourse.

Unless I have missed something, there are no non-contracted or non-retired experienced drivers available at the moment.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Unless I have missed something, there are no non-contracted or non-retired experienced drivers available at the moment.

Nasr, Maldonado, Gutierrez, Massa etc?

[Moneyseeker]

Interesting that Pat Symonds is saying that Williams must keep hold of Bottas next season. And herein lies the conundrum for Williams.

Commercially it makes sense to keep the Mercedes relationship going well as they need engine supply inn the long term, so I am sure it is tempting to trade Bottas for closer ties with them and maybe improved terms.

But, Williams relies on external income, they are not a car maker under writing F1. They have already slipped behind FI this year and you could argue that this was a combo of a better car and two better drivers. If Renault and McLaren get their act together next year, the top 10 is going to be very close and perhaps Williams and FI have been fortunate that two works teams are really out of position in F1 from where they should and might be.

Maybe Stroll will do a 'Max' and be scoring points from the off, but equally maybe they need one strong car to be challenging for points.

All of this affects Williams FOM income and maybe bonuses from sponsors for finishing position in the WCC. Mybe Stroll is putting so much money into Wiliams that it doesn't matter, but none the less is going to be a very interesting few weeks.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Nasr, Maldonado, Gutierrez, Massa etc?

Taking each in turn:

Meh
Liability
Meh
Retired (this past season = Meh)

That list is really not inspiring is it? Why would you take any of those over a promising youngster? You know what you're getting with that list and that's mediocrity. Why not roll the dice and hope you unearth the next big thing?

[JohnMiller]

I wouldn't. I agree with you. But the point was someone said no experienced drivers available, when actually there are.

[steve_r]

The point that was originally being made was that F1 is worse off because experienced drivers are being passed over in favour young drivers. This on a thread about who is going to get the 2nd Mercedes seat.

But I think we are in agreement that those 4 would not be a good signing for Merc.

[F1Pete]

I agree with ASCII Man. Experience is a force to be reckoned with. An experienced driver who has demonstrated solid drives and consistency deserves being promoted over inexperience imho. Can you imagine how Bottas is feeling after just signing a contract in October, knowing a top seat is now available and Williams has rejected the offer from Merc to acquire him? He must be feeling anxious. Then there is Grosjean who is experienced and has demonstrated that he can drive a car. These guys have paid their dues and it would be a kick in the nuts if the seat went to some unproven inexperienced driver. If Bottas for some reason didn't get the seat because Williams wouldn't agree to terms and conditions wouldn't you think he would lose motivation and build resentment for the team? Being a mid field team, Williams should not expect to hang on to a "desired" driver. These situations have occurred throughout F1 history where drivers are shuffled to better themselves.

Red bull and Mercedes obviously have different driver programs. RB she own two teams and their driver development program is designed around having two teams. Max was swiftly moved into the upper echelon during the season and drivers switched at the stroke of a pen. RB did it because they can. Mercedes doesn't have that kind of flexibility where they literally can groom their drivers like Red Bull can. Anyway, Bottas will be in the Merc. If he is not, I will drink out of my shoe.


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[Mies7337]

To me, it's starting to look like Button is the only realistic option to choose over Wehrlein that would be fast enough for sure and has got a contract that can be broken. We know from the time at McLaren that Button and Hamilton are a good marketing team and better friends as Rosberg and Hamilton were the last few seasons. The question is: Is Button prepared to come back from his retirement? Nasr, Maldonado and Gutierrez are not at all an option. Massa might be, but then, I'd rather have Wehrlein.
Is it still an option to put Ocon in the Mercedes and Wehrlein in the Force India?

[bella]

i think wehrlein is a better option than most people seem to be giving him credit for. but i'm loving this talk about carlos sainz being a frontrunner for the merc seat - i think he'd really throw lewis off course and it'd make for some fantastic drama. in a lot of ways he's not all that indifferent to rosberg...

[Sodemo]

Montoya should go on a diet and be in that car.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by bella

i think wehrlein is a better option than most people seem to be giving him credit for. but i'm loving this talk about carlos sainz being a frontrunner for the merc seat - i think he'd really throw lewis off course and it'd make for some fantastic drama. in a lot of ways he's not all that indifferent to rosberg...

Sounds fun...

Wonder whether the Petronas deal continuing/not continuing may influence the final choice. For sure Mercedes is supplying most of the coin, but commercial partners may have a view..

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Montoya should go on a diet and be in that car.

He's 41, for God's sake, and has just been dropped by Penske. Why on Earth would Mercedes even think of calling him up?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

i think wehrlein is a better option than most people seem to be giving him credit for. but i'm loving this talk about carlos sainz being a frontrunner for the merc seat - i think he'd really throw lewis off course and it'd make for some fantastic drama. in a lot of ways he's not all that indifferent to rosberg...

If Wehrlein is so good, why did Force India go with Ocon?

I think Mercedes needs somebody who is very good at setting up a car to replace Nico, they have outright pace in Hamilton, but they need the set up skills, and a youngster is probably not going to be able to carry this off.

Massa to me equals Bottas, Williams were lagging the second car development behind that of the first in 2016, they were keeping Bottas and letting Massa go, so we can assume who got the updates first.

Probably best to take Massa for a year until they can get one of the very best in the car.

[JABWOA]

Originally Posted by wnut

If Wehrlein is so good, why did Force India go with Ocon?

Personality clash. FI didn't like something he did at the last test he drove for them and that's the reason they gave him when asked. Wasn't performance or feedback related but he somehow rubbed them up the wrong way. (Probably much like the dummy spit after they signed Ocon.) But full credit to him for nicely asking them for their reason and feedback on what he can change in himself.

I highly doubt Button would sign on. He retired for a reason and getting back into a hot house with the drama queen... unless as an official number 2 which is to insult Jensen.

PW or Sainz (please please please). Or Button to Williams as driver/mentor to Stroll - money talks in these parts. (also thinking of the Stallone film "Driven.")

[Adam43]

I try hard to not think about the film Driven.

It rarely has any relevance to Motorsport.

[ASCII Man]

The less people think about Driven, the faster it fades from memory.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think Mercedes needs somebody who is very good at setting up a car to replace Nico, they have outright pace in Hamilton, but they need the set up skills, and a youngster is probably not going to be able to carry this off.

"setting up" a car... the drivers are mostly irrelevant in the set up process aside from driving it. it's the clever people in the offices (and the sim minion) that do the majority of that kind of stuff. lewis is hardly a genius and drives very differently to nico but he seemed to have a very good car most of the time? do you mean someone who can articulate themselves well enough to say whether they do or don't like something the car does? or someone who actually uses the sim to sanity check stuff?

most of the guys who can't articulate themselves properly get weeded out of the young driver schemes. unless they've got a massive chequebook

also re: ocon - he's THAT good.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bella

"setting up" a car... the drivers are mostly irrelevant in the set up process aside from driving it. it's the clever people in the offices (and the sim minion) that do the majority of that kind of stuff. lewis is hardly a genius and drives very differently to nico but he seemed to have a very good car most of the time? do you mean someone who can articulate themselves well enough to say whether they do or don't like something the car does? or someone who actually uses the sim to sanity check stuff?

most of the guys who can't articulate themselves properly get weeded out of the young driver schemes. unless they've got a massive chequebook

also re: ocon - he's THAT good.

Bella, am I not right in believing that, following the first few races of this past season after Rosberg won the first 4 races, Hamilton himself acknowledged that he was going to start following Rosberg's set-up as it seemed to be providing better results?

And once he changed, the wins started coming.

[GTRMagic]

Massa Set To Reverse Retirement Plans??•

Credible?

[F1Pete]

Which only means Bottas is being fitted for a seat in the Merc!


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[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Massa Set To Reverse Retirement Plans??•

Credible?

I can understand how & why this could work.
Rosberg throwing the towel in at such a time has left both a headache for Mercedes in finding a replacement driver of a suitable quality/experience and it has also suddenly made a drive available in let's face it, a car/team that's dominated for the last few years, a lot of the guys on the grid would love to sit in that seat.
Mercedes apparent great interest in Bottas has a knock on effect for his current team Williams. Although the financial changes it would make to the team if they 'sell' Bottas to Mercedes would be very beneficial, they [B][U]need[B][U] an experienced driver and one of a certain age as apparently Mr Stroll Senior has it contracted that his boy is partnered by a driver of sufficient quality & experience to act as a mentor & a suitable benchmark. Also, apparently (and understandably) the main sponsor Martini would not be happy to if both of 'their' drivers are outside of the age of people who (legally) can and do drink their product, so replacing Bottas would not be easy.
Massa is obviously a totally known quantity, both with the team and within F1 in general, his age & experience tick all of the boxes, so it almost seems to be inevitable.
The only possible obstacle in the way is how strong his desire (and commitment) to retire from F1 has been? He may have promised his family that this is it, and mentally, (as apparently Jenson Button has - but he would be another ideal candidate for the job in my opinion), Felippe may have also decided he is retiring from F1, and so that's that.
We will see what pans out, but it gives us all something to chat about during the off-season

[bella]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Bella, am I not right in believing that, following the first few races of this past season after Rosberg won the first 4 races, Hamilton himself acknowledged that he was going to start following Rosberg's set-up as it seemed to be providing better results?

And once he changed, the wins started coming.

dunno (it rings a bell), but i don't think it's done him any favours having someone there who did a lot (too much?) of diligant preparatory work that he could fall back on. where nico upped his game this season, lewis let his slide...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Massa Set To Reverse Retirement Plans??•

Credible?

I look forward to both a sheepish grin when he first shows up plus another emotional goodbye at the end of the Brazilian GP! It can be the "This time, it's for real tour!"

Richard