HTP, FIA, EDA? Papers, what are they

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

As jeremy points out, its difficult to justify or prove period build spec for non homologated cars, just a nice personal touch if you have a car with some documented histoire/specification. whether anyone else believes it is irrelevant!

Zef you are quite right but it is not difficult to understand why from an Appendix K view point the over view is for a group of cars with a known specification.You can rest assured that if they went down the any old race car route no slow old dogs with last five potential only but wonderful history would appear

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

The purpose beind the International requirement is two fold.Firstly it had to be homolgated-so a manufacturers specification was laid down and we had a common standard and secondly in the case of non homologated cars it meant that the car had been through a period scrutineering to ensure that it complied with the relevant regulations at the time.
It ain't perfect but it is logical and as best as can be achieved really.Club cars-non International could have run to any spec. or regs. who knows/knew

OK but the larger national meetings (e.g. at places that currently hold historic races like Goodwood, Silverstone, Oulton Park etc) presumably did scrutineer cars? Most would have at least been inclined to check a car that went surprisingly well for example...

It just seems to be daft that a genuine racing car can be ruled out because someone failed to pay for an international licence for their meetings, when a car with no history whatsoever is acceptable (especially when all the necessary modifications to its specification have been done recently).

Surely a genuine race car could be accepted as long as it now meets the requirements of its appropriate FIA historic class, rather than increasing the number of static items in museums? Or is there such a category already?

[john ruston]

That is what I was trying to get at Peter but you expressed so much better than I .We have papers for all our Pre War cars but now understand how it works thanks to Jeremy.Not sure I agree with it as you you can screw up a perfectly good car to make it eligible for papers.But them's the rules and that's what we have to adhere to!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

OK but the larger national meetings (e.g. at places that currently hold historic races like Goodwood, Silverstone, Oulton Park etc) presumably did scrutineer cars? Most would have at least been inclined to check a car that went surprisingly well for example...

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

It just seems to be daft that a genuine racing car can be ruled out because someone failed to pay for an international licence for their meetings, when a car with no history whatsoever is acceptable (especially when all the necessary modifications to its specification have been done recently).

Surely a genuine race car could be accepted as long as it now meets the requirements of its appropriate FIA historic class, rather than increasing the number of static items in museums? Or is there such a category already?

So all the British Clubmans cars, Redex Special Saloons, British Group 5 Touring cars-all of which ran to a particularly British set of National regulations comply according to this formula. Fine in a GB context-where they already run with various clubs-but no very meaningful in the context of the Old Timer GP for example
Yes Peter it has been the rule since time immemorial that a car which complies with those requirements shall be eligible and generally any car built to the International Formulae even those without International History-F1,2 FJ etc are as well.
What is generally unaceptable is a car with National only specification and history-though there are some very special cars which can be accepted.

[zefarelly]

So, In laymans terms, I can build the Rochdale to as new build supplied spec with a 1500 precrossflow, and do HSCC/HRS with the engine spec as per Cortina homologation ( which the HSCC has confirmed as being a period correct acceptable state of tune for HRS)

OR, I can restore and run it with Broadspeed 1300, hewland 5 speed and LSD as it was prepared in winter 66 . . . and do numerous other clubbie stuff.

the former is probably closest to anything acceptable for 'period correct' for pre66 which is where it has more likelyhood of being vaguely usable/competitive.

interestingly both engines produce about the same power, on average!

the only published documentation on racing appears to be lightweight/Rejo/FJ based.

obviously to make it competitive these days would require 'development' way above and beyond originality so it may be better off as a road car!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

So, In laymans terms, I can build the Rochdale to as new build supplied spec with a 1500 precrossflow, and do HSCC/HRS with the engine spec as per Cortina homologation ( which the HSCC has confirmed as being a period correct acceptable state of tune for HRS)

OR, I can restore and run it with Broadspeed 1300, hewland 5 speed and LSD as it was prepared in winter 66 . . . and do numerous other clubbie stuff.

the former is probably closest to anything acceptable for 'period correct' for pre66 which is where it has more likelyhood of being vaguely usable/competitive.

interestingly both engines produce about the same power, on average!

the only published documentation on racing appears to be lightweight/Rejo/FJ based.

obviously to make it competitive these days would require 'development' way above and beyond originality so it may be better off as a road car!

Sorry Zef you've lost me. Rochdales are not eligible for an HTP as they are not homologated and have no International history as far as I know. Unless of course you know otherwise.

[zefarelly]

I don't think they do, but it highlights the position(s) to those that haven't grasped the concept.

The owner of the Anstice-Brown lightweight has been printing, sorry, scouring, old magzines for ages but has yet to convince anyone it actually did anything.

I bought mine because it looks cool and has the right underpinnings (for me)

flared wheel arches rock!

[morninggents]

Interesting conumdrum this question of original car with racing history but no homologation versus the fully FIA papered 'period' saloon racer built from an old road going shed that only ever took Fred and Doris on shopping trips and the odd run to the coast. I doubt it will ever be satisfactorily resolved.

As an interesting aside - how many Rochdales were ever built, Zef and how many variations were there, engine makes and sizes, etc.

[zefarelly]

I agree Peter, THe Fordwater trophy is a good example of a mix of both sides of the fence, as it where

400 Olympics, 150 Phase 2's, at a guess half and half RIley or Ford powered, and a few oddities, so not a lot, but more than TVR/Marcos and other 'International manufacturers' managed!

[morninggents]

I seem to remember that in period many Rochdales were sold as a kit to which the purchasor added their own bits and finished the build - or is my memory fading?

[zefarelly]

you bought the car as a kit, and assembled yourself, to avoid tax, but the car was specified by the manufacturer I believe, unless you happened to want something completely different. A lot of cars where supplied like this as well, lotus for example, rolling shells and engines coming from 2 different companies for example.

[simon drabble]

There is a certain irony that the most well known Turner - Tatty Turner - is not in FIA spec and therefore I believe ineligible for papers unless it is changed to "correct" spec. Woudl it not be better to have a catergory of paper for these period correct anonomylies? I am currently reading "Cat out of the Bag" about the development of the lightweight E Types as written by a member of staff in the works competition dept.
Clearly not one lightweight was the same - plus ce ne change!

[Mike Bell]

Interesting chat about period competition cars not being able to get HTP. In 1965 Gilbern made to order a lightweight bodied GT (fibreglass so thin you could see through it!) and it competed in UK events in period with flared wheelarches and wider wheels. All documented.

Because the car did not comply to the homologation papers re bodywork (and weight I would guess!) a few years ago it was not able to get an HTP. It is now in Switzerland and I do not know what the current situation is. Like the Corvette GranSport, surely a GTP category Passport would be possible for this sort of car?

OT, but Zef, interesting how many Rochdales were made. Total production of Gilbern GTs was somewhere over 200 but less than 300. Complete cars and Component cars- never kit cars.

[terence]

Perhaps a similar case to Marcos's then? They were done in retro.Or maybe HTPs could be gained on a 'Special' basis.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Perhaps a similar case to Marcos's then? They were done in retro.Or maybe HTPs could be gained on a 'Special' basis.

Maybe- certainly I would be a bit miffed if such a car was given GTS status and competed directly against mine. When you mention 'fibreglass body'- people think 'Lotus Elite' sort of weight. The reality is very different

[Al Weyman]

Yes a Lotus Elan was available as a kit, I help a mate assemble one years ago.

[zefarelly]

Mike, the lightweight Olympic is transparent, apparently they painted the roof black inside as the driver was getting dazzled! sounds frightenigly dangerous to me.
As I understand the cars where as good as built and complete from the fatory but you had to assemble them to avoid purchase tax? so something like a wired trimmed shell with suspension, engine and box ready to fit.

BoT . . . you can have a 'special' set of papaers from the FiA, but maybe the MSA could have something like the HSCC VIF, quite what for I don't know as we have so many invitation race series its largely irrelevant. personally I just keep a file of all relevant documentation and history on my cars, which I'm sure most people do also

[Al Weyman]

It was a tax fiddle Zef no longer relevant with the advent of VAT. We assembled my mates Elan in a short weekend, as you say the body was fully wired and upholstered all we had to do was bolt up the suspension, brakes, axle engine and box and job done.

[Peter Mallett]

Purchase tax only applied to complete vehicles. If you built your own you paid 9%(?) less.

This was the main driving force behind the Lotus 7 initially.

[zefarelly]

It would be interesting to see if something like it, if put in place now would fuel the resurgence of the British car industry, continuation/kit based cars for road/race.

it would help muddy the originality waters a little more as well, just in case they thought a filter might work!

[terence]

Interesting thought Zef,but there were no such things as computors in the 'Kit Car Days'.

[zefarelly]

one might argue digital engineering is whats *******ising historic motorsport, starting with modern engines unde old style cam covers

[morninggents]

starting with modern engines unde old style cam covers[/QUOTE]

Under the cam covers ..... is that what makes the GT40s, Cobras, Tigers and Griffs so fast?

[terence]

Now Now,we dont want to start all that again, do we?

[zefarelly]

I'm more of a rocker cover man myself Peter