How could Formula Three be changed to strengthen its position?

[duke_toaster]

This follows on from the brief amount of discussion of the state of F3 in the GP2 and GP3 thread.

It appears that with IFM, FIA F2 and arguably GP3 Series there are a whole number of spec series trying to replace it - surely this cannot be good for motorsport as a whole if there is such Balkanization, and it's not exactly good for creating a simple single seater ladder.

Probably the biggest problem with F3 at the moment is costs. How could they be fixed in order bring it back to its former health? And how could sporting regulations be changed to prepare drivers better for the top levels of motorsport? Also, how could the current Formula Dallara situation be stopped?

[Richard B]

Clearly F3, especially British F3, has a problem in term of numbers but I don't think the situation is helped by the way it is promoted or rather isn't! after all it is the UK's premier single seat series and has paved the way for many GP drivers.
Cost is always an issue in any form of motorsport but there are few series (if any) that offer the same degree of technical training in terms of set up for drivers and engineers, skills that will be needed further up the career path for both.
As for a one make Formula Dallara series, I'd disagree since there are currently 3 chassis in British F3 and 3 differant engines, unlike a few formula one could mention, Formula Palmer 2 (sorry F2), World Series, Formula Renault..etc

[Peralta]

Prize money?

[davyboy]

I think there are three things that F3 has been sorely needing for some time :

o A higher power to grip ratio. In the dry an F3 rails around corners as the engine's not powerful enough to break the adhesion. Increase the power, lower the grip and increase the breaking distances. These machines are still a driver training ground. They need to be unwieldy to drive so that pilots can hone their craft.

o Get proper FIA endorsement of this type of racing as the de facto route to Formula One. So, remove FIA sanctioning from all competing series. Establish a premier F3 championship that supports the F1 circus with a guaranteed race seat in F1 for the winner.

o Get a proper control on costs. While I'm not advocating arrive and drive, things need to be done to bring costs to about 50% more than Formula Renault for a national series. Long life powertrain with penalties for changes a la F1 and cheaper chassis components to reduce the cost of accidents could be one option. Budget caps another.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think there are three things that F3 has been sorely needing for some time :

o A higher power to grip ratio. In the dry an F3 rails around corners as the engine's not powerful enough to break the adhesion. Increase the power, lower the grip and increase the breaking distances. These machines are still a driver training ground. They need to be unwieldy to drive so that pilots can hone their craft.

I've got to agree on that point - a move up in power and a cut in grip would be a good idea. How exactly that could be done is the question. Possibly a single template for a non-adjustable front and rear wing. Get rid of the bargeboards and similar.

o Get proper FIA endorsement of this type of racing as the de facto route to Formula One. So, remove FIA sanctioning from all competing series. Establish a premier F3 championship that supports the F1 circus with a guaranteed race seat in F1 for the winner.

I'm unsure about the EU legality of removing competing series, but there ought to be severe discouragement to racing in series outside of a/the simple FJnr-F3-F2*-F1 ladder. I'd suggest using the Superlicence, by awarding Superlicences to the top few in the F3 World Championship and to most F2* drivers - but taking it away from a lot of other series.

I'm not sure about an F1 supporting series as it would rocket costs, as well as damage the national series. The national series have the advantage of being a blue riband event of national motorsport if it were to be promoted properly and not playing second fiddle to wherever SRO wants to take his series (OK, Bucharest has been removed).

However there needs to be a Formula 3 World Champion. I suggest the best way of doing it would be creating a Grand Slam of F3 with the rounds being Pau, Zandvoort and two others (Macau and Marrakesh coheadlining with WTCC would make it a World Championship without major FIA statute manipulation). A lot of drivers currently do guest appearances in other series and similar, and if there was a World Championship to win that would be a big incentive. Or possibly make the World Championship one knockout event at the end of the year - but that would need changes.

o Get a proper control on costs. While I'm not advocating arrive and drive, things need to be done to bring costs to about 50% more than Formula Renault for a national series. Long life powertrain with penalties for changes a la F1 and cheaper chassis components to reduce the cost of accidents could be one option. Budget caps another.

Budget caps on running a team could be a bit more difficult to do at national level, however there is one similar idea that is viable - a chassis price cap. Fix the cost of a chassis at €X in the technical regulations. If you build legal F3 chassis you would have to sell them at that price or lower - if someone turns up to Acme Chassis and they won't be sold one at €X, Acme would be breaching the contract they signed when they got the car homologated. The same applies for spare parts - fixed amount for a suspension bit, fixed amount for a front wing. Carbon fibre bits could be removed as well.

Engine formulea ... well that's a different issue, but the BTCC is moving towards a 2000T formula - could a turbo engine that's somewhat "underclocked" work, but then again the engine would have to be stressed.

One idea that could be proposed is bumping up the chassis phase length from three to five or possibly more years. They'res supposed to be a junior formula, not space shuttles.

* A new series, not the current FIA F2. Think F3000.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

... but taking it (Superlicence) away from a lot of other series.

and you can bet that the EU will be thrilled by that...

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Budget caps on running a team could be a bit more difficult to do at national level, however there is one similar idea that is viable - a chassis price cap. Fix the cost of a chassis at €X in the technical regulations. If you build legal F3 chassis you would have to sell them at that price or lower - if someone turns up to Acme Chassis and they won't be sold one at €X, Acme would be breaching the contract they signed when they got the car homologated. The same applies for spare parts - fixed amount for a suspension bit, fixed amount for a front wing. Carbon fibre bits could be removed as well.

what about development? if it's allowed then it's back to square one, if not your formula is like any spec series (especially so if the chassis circle is a long one). Remember Grand Am?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

and you can bet that the EU will be thrilled by that...

Depends how it's justified (by the lawyers). It wouldn't be a total get-rid-of, as I'd continue to award Superlicences to the IRL and certain achivements in LMP1s.

what about development? if it's allowed then it's back to square one, if not your formula is like any spec series (especially so if the chassis circle is a long one). Remember Grand Am?

Some intra-phase development would be legal. The new parts would have to be on sale for the prices listed in the technical regulations, and there would be a fixed amount (price wise) of new homologations for a year. It could possibly even be used as a handicap system, so that less good chassis can have more upgrades than other ones, or allowing them to cannibalize it from future years.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think there are three things that F3 has been sorely needing for some time :

o A higher power to grip ratio. In the dry an F3 rails around corners as the engine's not powerful enough to break the adhesion. Increase the power, lower the grip and increase the breaking distances. These machines are still a driver training ground. They need to be unwieldy to drive so that pilots can hone their craft.

o Get proper FIA endorsement of this type of racing as the de facto route to Formula One. So, remove FIA sanctioning from all competing series. Establish a premier F3 championship that supports the F1 circus with a guaranteed race seat in F1 for the winner.

o Get a proper control on costs. While I'm not advocating arrive and drive, things need to be done to bring costs to about 50% more than Formula Renault for a national series. Long life powertrain with penalties for changes a la F1 and cheaper chassis components to reduce the cost of accidents could be one option. Budget caps another.

So increase the amount of air to the engine, specify a harder tyre, set up a formal FIA European title, a free or supported seat in GP2 for the winner, and mandatory long-lifed components to reduce wear and tear in some basic areas.
It would be relatively simple and inexpensive to do, with the changes bound to create some real interest amongst competitors, but how close would it be to the present F2....
And that is the crux of the question.
The FIA has sorted F2 as its window to GP racing so any alternative has to find its place below F2 or it will not have FIA support.

If the FIA formed a new F3 with a spec below that of F2 but as a support class to European GP's that would create a definite interest but it would not be current F3. That domain would then become the the province of the alternatives...GP3, Formula Master, a new Formula Renault (?) etc

.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

...
It would be relatively simple and inexpensive to do, with the changes bound to create some real interest amongst competitors, but how close would it be to the present F2....
And that is the crux of the question.
The FIA has sorted F2 as its window to GP racing so any alternative has to find its place below F2 or it will not have FIA support.
.

Super Formula Palmer Audi has a contract until the end of 2011, it would realistically be difficult to have such a major shake-up before 2012. Just kill it of and don't bring it back, or let Jonny Palmer call it what he wants.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The FIA has sorted F2 as its window to GP racing so any alternative has to find its place below F2 or it will not have FIA support.

Therein lies one of the problems... realistically the gap between F2 and F1 is too big. It would also be difficult to create a series that sat below F2 without compromising Formula Renault. Unless the FIA sees the progression to F1 being karts->F2->F1 and everything else will be a deviation from that.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Therein lies one of the problems... realistically the gap between F2 and F1 is too big. It would also be difficult to create a series that sat below F2 without compromising Formula Renault. Unless the FIA sees the progression to F1 being karts->F2->F1 and everything else will be a deviation from that.

Why? Kimi went from Formula Renault to F1. Anything is possible and I think that a realistic ladder is FR, F3, GP2, F1. however these series in the main have over priced themselves creating a need for alternatives. Everone is a critic of the F2 system (my self included) however they do allow many very good drivers to compete who otherwise would have to stop and the chance to get a superlicience. Whilst it not a good training ground at least it offers an opportunity to a "less rich" driver to have a shot.

[davyboy]

There's nothing to stop somebody going from karts to F1. At his first test, Nico Rosberg demonstrated that he was quite capable in a Formula 1 car with very little car experience.

I don't disagree with you on the virtues of F2, my point is that if the FIA see that rather than GP2 being the recommended route into F1, what would you put between F2 and karting ? Formula Renault is as expensive as F2, so why spend a season there when you could just go straight into F2 ?

[strider]

Originally Posted by davyboy

There's nothing to stop somebody going from karts to F1. At his first test, Nico Rosberg demonstrated that he was quite capable in a Formula 1 car with very little car experience.

In fact, Rosberg was German FBMW Championship in 2002 and then had a couple of season in the F3ES, finishing 8th and 4th so he had quite a bit of single-seater experience. He has fared rather better than his old school-mate in the attached photo.

However, it proves the point that you can jump from F3 to F1 without much difficulty.

[ivanalesi]

The problem is not only in F3. Ideally F3 would be much more powerful, fun car to drive, not so dependent on downforce. Something like 450-500 bhp will be great for F3, cars sliding with not much grip and so on. Little version of SLF car. Then there would be lots of crowds on the national meetings.
But then you have to up the power in F2/GP2/whatever and here comes the FIA and Bernie.
You can't! Our beloved F1 has 750 bhp! You can't have GP2 with so much power.
It's F1 that should be 1st changed, it should simply be much over 1000 bhp, like Jeremy Clarkson says: POWERRR!

On another TG note, there was some episod about the Finnish. Being ever innovative, they had local races called "1000". You can pick whatever car you want to drive there, but after the race, if I come to you and say I want your car - you've got to sell it to me for 1000 Euro! Otherwise you're excluded Fantastic budget cap.
There's a similar championship in the US(can't remember the name), where they have a max car value of 2009$ for this year, 2010$ for next and so on...

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

The problem is not only in F3. Ideally F3 would be much more powerful, fun car to drive, not so dependent on downforce. Something like 450-500 bhp will be great for F3, cars sliding with not much grip and so on. Little version of SLF car. Then there would be lots of crowds on the national meetings.

I'm not sure if that would be cost effective. I don't have any figures, but from what I hear Superleague Formula certainly isn't cheap, the engine was specifically designed for them and the car is very heavy.

I'd go for an option with around 260-300hp (low state of tune pressure and rev limited two litre turbos lasting a season), wider cars and tyres but less downforce. Lasting a full season of course.

But then you have to up the power in F2/GP2/whatever and here comes the FIA and Bernie.
You can't! Our beloved F1 has 750 bhp! You can't have GP2 with so much power.

Remember, Bernie has nothing to do with F2(Super Palmer Audi) and the FIA have little or nothing to do with GP2. GP2 is not ran directly by the FIA. GP2 and A1GP are currently at 600hp, SF is at 750hp. GP2 could be replaced with a non-spec F2, and 600hp would be about right for that, but that's ancillary to this thread.

It's F1 that should be 1st changed, it should simply be much over 1000 bhp, like Jeremy Clarkson says: POWERRR!

Unless the chassis were either designed to be as advanced as something from the Flintstones, the cars were to sprout the aerodynamics of a horse box moving sideways or become as obese as the fat one that appears in that rubbish sitcom with Ruth Jones, that would increase straightline speeds. Cornering speeds are the main issue as far as stopping the cars going too fast.

On another TG note, there was some episod about the Finnish. Being ever innovative, they had local races called "1000". You can pick whatever car you want to drive there, but after the race, if I come to you and say I want your car - you've got to sell it to me for 1000 Euro! Otherwise you're excluded Fantastic budget cap.

There's a similar championship in the US(can't remember the name), where they have a max car value of 2009$ for this year, 2010$ for next and so on...

Not unique, but it could be an interesting idea in certain areas. A fixed price for new parts in F3 could be an interesting proposal, such a system exists in Super 2000 rallying. That system isn't so effective as it doesn't include trick parts, when my one does.