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22 Mar 2006, 19:47 (Ref:1557704) | #1 | |
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how to get more power?
I need some help here. In rally gr N more or less everything has to be standard. How can you get more power out of a lets say Mitsubishi Lancer?
You have the mapping; what else? The car has a 32 mm restrictor on the inlet side of the turbo which doesn't really help. Does the design of the restrictor have any importance? |
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23 Mar 2006, 01:19 (Ref:1557946) | #2 | ||
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Do you have much freedom in that? Normally there's pretty strict set of criteria in regard to what comes before and after the restrictor.
I'm also unfamiliar with the car. Is this the turbo EVO we're talking about? |
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23 Mar 2006, 08:30 (Ref:1558104) | #3 | |
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no there is not much freedom at all. all parts has to be standard, not modified etc. And yes it is the Lancer Evo turbo I'm talking about.
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23 Mar 2006, 09:36 (Ref:1558218) | #4 | ||
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That's the problem with near standard regs, you can spend a heck of a lot of money gaining very little.
Obvious gains are - - Remapping as already mentioned. This would have to be done on an engine dyno NOT a rolling road. - Blueprinting the engine, including the turbo. - Thinner but better oil (engine, gearbox and diffs). - Experiment (on the engine dyno) with different length restrictors. - Get hold of the FIA Group N homologation papers and see if Mitsubishi homologated any 'special' parts. You usually get at least a Group N exhaust listed. |
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23 Mar 2006, 11:07 (Ref:1558301) | #5 | ||
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I'd agree with Denis, but would add the rider of temperatures. :
Duncan |
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23 Mar 2006, 16:29 (Ref:1558674) | #6 | |
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focus on how you can keep the car on top of the power band,
its a tough situation to be in, certainly challeging anyway, maybe best to sink the money into chassis work, you need to think where the largest gains can be had before spending money and the engine sounds very limited in what your allowed to do, |
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24 Mar 2006, 00:36 (Ref:1559137) | #7 | |||
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24 Mar 2006, 08:29 (Ref:1559417) | #8 | ||
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really you need to use both, the dyno is better at getting totally accurate back to back test results and is easier to make sure you start each power run with identical temps, oil, water, intake charge, it also removes variables such as tyre pressure and temp.
BUT the dyno cannot 100% duplicate the as fitted engine installation so really you need to do both, although if the rolling road you use has modern clever software and a good operator you can get close to dyno consistancy, although in the case of my car now we are really fighting for grip on the rollers even with a boot full of weight and massive sticky slicks, then again we have seen 389bhp at the wheels! |
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24 Mar 2006, 08:30 (Ref:1559418) | #9 | |||
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And we are talking about lots of little gains. |
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24 Mar 2006, 08:36 (Ref:1559420) | #10 | |||
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AKA Guru its not speed thats dangerous, just the sudden lack of it! |
24 Mar 2006, 10:32 (Ref:1559466) | #11 | ||
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You need to speak to Mountune, they have done a lot of work on restricted Group-N cars, not to mention WRC cars, and will be able to re-map the engine in order to give you much more drivability
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24 Mar 2006, 11:48 (Ref:1559505) | #12 | ||
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If more power is difficult I would plump for 1.better driving 2. better handling 3. .less weight. Is it better to spend lots of money for slight amounts of more power or spend the money learning how to really use the power you already have. just a thought.
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Is there a gap? looks like a gap! I can get through there! crunch oops maybe not. |
24 Mar 2006, 11:49 (Ref:1559506) | #13 | ||
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Not saying you dont already!!!!!!!
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Is there a gap? looks like a gap! I can get through there! crunch oops maybe not. |
24 Mar 2006, 13:29 (Ref:1559554) | #14 | |||
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24 Mar 2006, 15:15 (Ref:1559676) | #15 | ||
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oh i 100% agree Al, especially with todays ecus.
until my bigger injectors arrive my power output is limited, basically i cant rev it past 6000 without melting something, so simply playing with rev limiters will limit power as at 6000 the power curve is still going steeply up, let alone the ecu playing with the boost control, at the moment we have mine on absolute min boost to cut the fuelling to allow it to safely rev to a sensable figure, but we already know the clever electronics will add or remove 100bhp @5000rpm |
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25 Mar 2006, 01:23 (Ref:1560021) | #16 | |||
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I am curious to see some English perspectives on the rolling road issue. I only ask as the only one's I've seen over there have been primitve in the least so I kind of knew the answer before I wrote the question. You can get very good repeatability on the better rolling roads and hub type chassis dyno's. Al's experience with the 400hp tyre smoker on the dyno is a classic case of a crap dyno. The good ones will hold 800 with ease. |
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26 Mar 2006, 20:04 (Ref:1561549) | #17 | |
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so what is the optimum place to chage gears? when you're on top of the power curve or a bit later so it starts a bit higher up on the curve on the next gear?
How can lengths of restrictor change the power? |
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26 Mar 2006, 20:15 (Ref:1561559) | #18 | ||
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once you have reached the usable power peak I would have thought it was academic just revving for the sakeof it and better to get it back into the band in a lower gear, remember revs kill engines not power.
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27 Mar 2006, 08:05 (Ref:1562031) | #19 | ||
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It depends if the upshift drops you out of the power band or not! Sometimes you have to rev just a little higher to get you into the power band when you shift up..
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28 Mar 2006, 21:29 (Ref:1563745) | #20 | |
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Not familiar with your particular engine but you could try:
reverse cooling water pump - cool the cylinder head before the block, helps keep the air cool entering the cylinders (bearing in mind that this will induce more friction to v/train components yet still keeping bottom end wear down) With regard to keeping inlet temps cool try using a composite inlet manifold - less heat conductive then aluminium helping the inlet charge to enter cylinders as cool as possible . Making sure to use use thermal insulating gaskets between inlet and engine. Ceramic coated exhaust + manifold - This will keep your engine bay temp down and will keep the exhaust gas leaving the engine as hot as possible improving the rate flow which on a turbo engine should be of good benefit. Alternatively, strap some lead to your right foot!!!! |
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Cheers Glenn |
29 Mar 2006, 07:02 (Ref:1564012) | #21 | |||
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Agree on the coatings. |
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30 Mar 2006, 15:58 (Ref:1565272) | #22 | ||
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Mathematically speaking, the car goes faster if you shift just after peak power revs. You are trying to maximise the area under the power curve and for a given gear split this happens when you shift after the peak. Look at slide 23 of this PowerPoint presentation:-
http://www.imeche.org.uk/formulastud...2004%20JH1.pdf In this slideshow there's also some interesting stuff on designing intakes for restrictors, which is even on-topic for the rest of this thread! |
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20 Apr 2006, 04:47 (Ref:1589348) | #23 | |||
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Poor restrictor design will create a vortex Ideally you will be able to run until the air gets to supersonic speed. More air = more power No one has said it, but the best thing you can do with a turbo car is run it on the best fuel for your class, combined with the right tune you will pick up 20 BHP, with a 32 mm restrictor that is probably 7% ELF TurboMax or the like , in Aus it is 5 times the cost of Pump 98, but that is the price you pay! |
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20 Apr 2006, 13:39 (Ref:1589723) | #24 | ||
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CHEAT!
lol jk but in all reality in the states at least its a lot of how much can you get away with. in your case is it that you must use stock parts or you must use stock parts as stock parts are purchased? maybe when your blueprinting try things like a serious micropolish on all internal surfaces. might also want to see the rules about the restrictor. the Formula SAE restrictors all end up nicely tapered and polished smooth. don't know what your restrictions are but one team changed restrictor materials to something less thermally active because the sucker was closing down due to the cooling flow of the air. its incredibly miniscule but its a gain nevertheless. the alternator trick is a good one. but if your really serious after checking it out and proving it will work in your application consider stripping the alternator and replacing the bearings to gain back a little rotational friction. check your belt tightness and keep it towards the low end (not so much though that your slipping) to prevent radial loading of the pulleys. polish every surface everywhere inside the block and in all the manifolds. maybe extrude hone the manifolds. ceramic coat both intake and exhaust maybe inside and out. it all depends on what is allowed really. what is specifically excluded and what you can get caught doing |
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20 Apr 2006, 22:59 (Ref:1590315) | #25 | ||
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FIA restrictors have to be made of a material that is not subjet to a change of more than Z% in size between x and Y temps (can't remember, but it is something like 0.01% at 0 to 140 deg) I race on the circuit, but in a class with restrictos, and they measure ours both before and after an event, ie hot and cold.
The restrictor needs to be within 50 mm of the compresor, so if you went this way, you would be best to use something that is going to expand from the heat soak. |
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