Historic Racing Today

[The Fat Clerk]

Not if you're sitting next to me, you'll stop me from dozing like I normally do at these events

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Not if you're sitting next to me, you'll stop me from dozing like I normally do at these events

You wouldnt let me ask the question I wanted to ask last time!!!! ha ha...I will this time! ha ha

[johngee]

I don't think I want to sit near either of you then. One snoozing and the other asking awkward questions.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I don't see CSCC as being particularly cheap all said and done especially as they only have one start a weekend not two sprints with two starts and I know a lot of people simply don't want to do 40 minute races, if something goes wrong in that 40 minute race there are no 2nd chances and as for spectators watching it, well trying to follow the race is a nightmare for a start. If you wanted to do a 2nd set of races at a BARC/CTCRC race weekend its much better value

Al, we have been here before but I will repeat myself,

The reason why CSCC and the other 40ish minute races are good value is because down time between races costs money. So, practice and 2 x 20 minute races does cost more than practice and one 40 min raçe.

Usually get 60 mins track time for your money or, if you have 2 x sprint races it either more expensive for the same t rack time or you get less total track time inc practice.


Also, most accident appear to happen at the start so the higher risk. Risk = cost. I don't actually want 2 starts.

The 2 drivér format allows 2 people to share costs, therefore lower cost for the same amount of track time as 1 sprint race.

Horses for course, but look at the series that are largely thriving, oh yes,the 40ish minute 2 Drivér races in cscc, Msvr and 750.

Pre 2003 is a good idea, though for those that want it.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

Al, we have been here before but I will repeat myself,

The reason why CSCC and the other 40ish minute races are good value is because down time between races costs money. So, practice and 2 x 20 minute races does cost more than practice and one 40 min raçe.

Usually get 60 mins track time for your money or, if you have 2 x sprint races it either more expensive for the same t rack time or you get less total track time inc practice.


Also, most accident appear to happen at the start so the higher risk. Risk = cost. I don't actually want 2 starts.

The 2 drivér format allows 2 people to share costs, Redford lower cost for the same amount of track time as 1 sprint race.

Horses for course, but look at the series that are largely thriving, oh yes,the 40ish minute 2 Drivér races in cscc, Msvr and 750.

Pre 2003 is a good idea, though for those that want it.

As ya said....de ja vue

[terence]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Not if you're sitting next to me, you'll stop me from dozing like I normally do at these events

Ah, so that was the reason.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by andy97

The reason why CSCC and the other 40ish minute races are good value is because down time between races costs money. So, practice and 2 x 20 minute races does cost more than practice and one 40 min raçe.

Also, most accident appear to happen at the start so the higher risk. Risk = cost. I don't actually want 2 starts.

The 2 drivér format allows 2 people to share costs, therefore lower cost for the same amount of track time as 1 sprint race.

I have to agree with Al on this as I got bored after a few laps unless the racing was particularly close. I much prefer two shorter races and, to me, the start and first lap are the best part by far.
As far as the cost sharing goes there's no reason why two drivers can't do a race each.
I do agree there is a bit more down time so costs will be a bit higher. Some of our HRSR members keep asking for at least one 40 or 45 minute race during the season but when we get them the entries tend to be down on our norm so we have assumed that our average member is anti rather than pro.

[Derwent Motorsp]

Our MSA Officials day is not for another 4 weeks. Motorsport as a whole is in steep decline with fewer and fewer events each year.
The MSA disguises this in their statistics by basing the figures on the number of permits issued. In the last 15 years, more and more events run on more than one permit such as a NatA/NatB hill climb or a Historic and Targa Rally. For example my own club ran ten events last year but had 19 permits. A BRC rally could have 3 or even 4 permits.

[midgetman]

They've done that in karting too, trying to disguise the fact that licences issued are down from 5,000-ish to 3,500-ish. I didn't realise about the multi-permit job, that's a real figure fudge.

[morninggents]

The MSA needs a massive clear out starting from the top.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

As ya said....de ja vue

And that sort of response Claire is probably why I don't bother to post much anymore.

[simes43]

I read the MSA magazine from cover to cover looking for an article on how they are going to reduce the cost of competing. I haven't bothered opening the last couple of issues, however, they seem to refuse to admit there is a problem or take a solitary step towards helping the competitor.

Allowing monopolies to carry on regardless of the cost to competitors demonstrates how disconnected they have become.

Five quids worth of transponder retailed for the price of an Ipad is a case in point. Hosting some pdf's and offsetting the timing cost should be included in the License fee.

Putting the historic tyre contract out to tender should not be beyond the wit of man too.

In regards to my racing, I can only see three to four outings worth doing this year in my Fia B which is hardly a great return on investment when my off season bill will mean each race will average out at £2k (no Spa etc). I might upgrade to a more entry friendly FIA car, I might not bother.

I purchased a BMW compact cup car last year. My entire tyre, brake and consumable bill for 2015 will be less than one set of Ls.

[simes43]

Oh and the unpolicing/turning a blind eye to poor driving standards frustrates me too.

Rubbing ain't racing, its bloody expensive!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by simes43

I purchased a BMW compact cup car last year. My entire tyre, brake and consumable bill for 2015 will be less than one set of Ls.

Great idea and I hope that you enjoy it. I understand completely. My 924S cost me £2500, a set of List 1B tyres lasted 6 races and I may still use them this year, it's the best handling car I have ever driven and if I blow the engine up I can get another for about £500. Do I enjoy myself any less than those in Ferraris etc? Doubt it.

Perhaps more clubs, even in so called Historics, should do power to weight ratio classes so that we have people to battle with and at club level we can all have fun at relatively lower cost.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simes43

Oh and the unpolicing/turning a blind eye to poor driving standards frustrates me too.

Rubbing ain't racing, its bloody expensive!

Well what should we expect? Just look where the man at the top came from.

[simes43]

Originally Posted by andy97

Great idea and I hope that you enjoy it. I understand completely. My 924S cost me £2500, a set of List 1B tyres lasted 6 races and I may still use them this year, it's the best handling car I have ever driven and if I blow the engine up I can get another for about £500. Do I enjoy myself any less than those in Ferraris etc? Doubt it.

Perhaps more clubs, even in so called Historics, should do power to weight ratio classes so that we have people to battle with and at club level we can all have fun at relatively lower cost.

To be fair, the amalgamation of Ecurie and Equipe this year should provide good, equal-ish grids for my B. I just don't fancy droning around Mallory etc for 30 minutes.

Getting lapped every 10 minutes by a Chevron doesnt float my boat much either in the other series.

The Compact cup organisers are very strict on driving standards (a camera in each car) and keeping costs down ( 4 sets of microchipped tyres). 50 plus car grids are not by accident!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And that sort of response Claire is probably why I don't bother to post much anymore.

Al, i was not having a go at you and don't think i was....apologies if you think I was....I was merely saying that this has all been said before....it has....and what Andy said he has said before...it is...horses for courses...and so it should be

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

.........In the last 15 years, more and more events run on more than one permit ....

When we did the first 6 hour...we had one permit and that covered the support races as well...but now, we have to have one permit for endurance racing and one for the support race...Yes I had a debate with the MSA about that ....I don't get the logic, but apparently that is how it is now.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by simes43

I read the MSA magazine from cover to cover looking for an article on how they are going to reduce the cost of competing. I haven't bothered opening the last couple of issues, however, they seem to refuse to admit there is a problem or take a solitary step towards helping the competitor.

Allowing monopolies to carry on regardless of the cost to competitors demonstrates how disconnected they have become.

Five quids worth of transponder retailed for the price of an Ipad is a case in point. Hosting some pdf's and offsetting the timing cost should be included in the License fee.

Putting the historic tyre contract out to tender should not be beyond the wit of man too.

In regards to my racing, I can only see three to four outings worth doing this year in my Fia B which is hardly a great return on investment when my off season bill will mean each race will average out at £2k (no Spa etc). I might upgrade to a more entry friendly FIA car, I might not bother.

I purchased a BMW compact cup car last year. My entire tyre, brake and consumable bill for 2015 will be less than one set of Ls.

Some good observations here, some of which I alluded to in earlier posts. I see the MSA these days in much the same light as the Government. They view competitors in much the same way as the Government see the electorate: as a bunch of plebs who need to be controlled, for their own safety, and as a source of ready income to keep them all in their comfortable lifestyles.

I don't pay much attention to any of the stuff that drops through the letterbox from the MSA, so I don't really know what goes on within. However, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if the the top nobs there award themselves a nice juicy pay rise each year, along with bonuses and what have you. And for what? Bearing in mind that the bulk (if not all) of their income comes from us, the licence holders, then what exactly do they do for the average competitor that justifies their existence?

Racing gets more and more expensive, year on year, with more and more pointless rules and regulations, all foisted upon us under the banner of 'we know what's best for you'. If they're not careful, they will eventually legislate the club racer into oblivion. Do they even realise, I wonder, just how much they actually need us? The MSA, and the motorsport industry at large, can't survive on just the BTCC, Goodwood and the Classic. Without the club meetings going on every weekend up and down the country, they're all screwed.

I think it's about time the powers that be at the MSA realised this, and started listening to the people who pay their wages! As far as I'm concerned, club motorsport in this country needs a radical overhaul with a view to reducing costs, cutting red tape and scrapping dozens of pointless rules and regulations. It's about time that some personal responsibility was handed back to us, the competitors. I honestly believe that if this isn't done, and soon, club motorsport in the UK will die before too long. And if it does, then everything else goes with it.

[Nick JM]

[QUOTE=simes43;3509787]To be fair, the amalgamation of Ecurie and Equipe this year should provide good, equal-ish grids for my B. I just don't fancy droning around Mallory etc for 30 minutes.

Getting lapped every 10 minutes by a Chevron doesnt float my boat much either in the other series.

What about HRDC? I have a great time in my B there.?

Completely agree about the "Chevron" comment. It's one of the reasons I tend not not have too many entries with HSCC . Great though they are the Guards is just not much fun on, say, Silverstone National when I spend most ofmy time mirror watching as I'm being lapped for the second or third time by the front runners!

[MGDavid]

[QUOTE=Nick JM;3509922]

Originally Posted by simes43

....... just not much fun on, say, Silverstone National .......

nothing's much fun on S'stone National, arguably duller than Mallory - unless I suppose you're in something pretty quick or a single-seater...

[John Turner]

Well, you've all confirmed that there is life in this 'ere' forum with some very good posts, some off topic which didn't matter and some which made me chuckle out loud. I feel particularly sorry for the likes of Jo, though because I know where he is coming from. I'd love to provide races for such cars as the Tornado, Mike's Gilbern etc at reasonable cost but I fear that it would be a time consuming step too far for me and also would tread on others toes. However, that's a specific point and this is a great wide ranging discussion, so carry on!

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Paul D

I don't pay much attention to any of the stuff that drops through the letterbox from the MSA, so I don't really know what goes on within. However, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if the the top nobs there award themselves a nice juicy pay rise each year, along with bonuses and what have you. And for what? Bearing in mind that the bulk (if not all) of their income comes from us, the licence holders, then what exactly do they do for the average competitor that justifies their existence?


I think it's about time the powers that be at the MSA realised this, and started listening to the people who pay their wages! As far as I'm concerned, club motorsport in this country needs a radical overhaul with a view to reducing costs, cutting red tape and scrapping dozens of pointless rules and regulations. It's about time that some personal responsibility was handed back to us, the competitors. I honestly believe that if this isn't done, and soon, club motorsport in the UK will die before too long. And if it does, then everything else goes with it.

Paul, I agree with much of what you say, as usual, but perhaps you both typify and explain in the quotes above the nub of the problem.....

The competitor's input to the MSA is theoretically via their motorclub, debating issues and feeding comments and questions up into their local Regional Association, which in turn after debate feeds via the Regional Representative up to the regular meetings hosted by the MSA.....but far too many of us "don't pay much attention" to what the MSA publish, and the idea of a regular club meeting debating issues is almost unheard of these days, especially in Racing, as most of us are merely members "at a distance" simply to compete in a particular series. Many motor clubs of all disciplines are suffering from a drop in numbers and (of course) a dearth of young members. Last Regional Association meeting I attended (ANCC) less than half the member clubs were represented and the average age of the delegates was well over 50.......

Net result of a lack of involvement is a lack of representation and a continuing culture of things being run by those with much experience but perhaps imagination more bounded by the "we've always done it this way" mentality. The only remedy is for a majority of competitors to take an active interest in the organisation and planning of the sport, but realistically it is unlikely to happen whilst we can set the world to rights via a computer keyboard....

[Paul D]

Richard - you are probably correct, and I'm just as guilty of it as the next guy. As you say, it's easy to come on here and put the world to rights, but it takes a bit more effort and planning to actually do something about it!

There is a lot of apathy about, but nobody seems to care!

By the way, how's the Alfa coming along!

[zefarelly]

I'm far from 'Woe is me', I think its a 50/50 split of my change in personal circumstance (parent/income) and the inflationary cost rise. I'm not sure racing's got much more expensive in the last 12 year, but that my disposable income hasn't kept up, nor my desire to waste it. One things for sure, less people do europe and the complexity and therefore cost has definitely gone up. THgats always been my favourite bit, racing in the UK seems like a chore a lot of the time, mostly because of the travel.

Originally Posted by John Turner

Well, you've all confirmed that there is life in this 'ere' forum with some very good posts, some off topic which didn't matter and some which made me chuckle out loud. I feel particularly sorry for the likes of Jo, though because I know where he is coming from. I'd love to provide races for such cars as the Tornado, Mike's Gilbern etc at reasonable cost but I fear that it would be a time consuming step too far for me and also would tread on others toes. However, that's a specific point and this is a great wide ranging discussion, so carry on!