Imola

[the_royksopp]

Hey,

Watching the exiting duel between Alonso and Schumacher at the end of todays Sanmarinese GP, gave me a good view of where overtaking is possible at Imola.

So, i made an edit. According to this aerial, all my incorporated changes should be possible.

So, here we go,


Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

My first change is at Villeneuve. It struck me, that the chicane there is fundamentally wrongly shaped. It wasnt possible for anyone to get anywhere near the driver in front through this combo. So, i tightened the first leg, and slightly loosened the second, in order not to disturb the run-in to Tosa too much.

Variante Alta i changed, because it's simply such an odd little thing stuck in the middle of a straight. A 'proper' chicane would be better imo. So i changed the runin to the first leg, making it slightly bended to the left, opposite of the actual turn, and i lengthened the distance between the two legs.

At Variante Bassa, i opted for a whole new configuration. There needs to be some kind of a speed-stopper there, both for safety reasons, but also because an all blank straight would ruin overtaking at Tamburello somewhat. But it can be done much more interesting than just the boring left-right dogleg thats there. I opted to make a loose right into a tight left, again into a loose right. I'm not sure it'd give more overtaking, but it'd be more exiting, and there isnt that much overtaking going on at Variante Bassa as it is.

So, whaddaya think? .

[f1freak]

Imola is a very touchy subject, and is one of the most 'edited' tracks on FT as well (http://imola.fantasytracks.2ya.com/)...

Actually, I'm comparing this with your old edit of the track, and it's vastly different, and moreso the edit I've done below to my old one.

But yea, your track, its good. It's all possible, and I like the ideas for Villeneuve and Variante Alta. However, I don't know about Variante Bassa, it seems to be more dangerous like that the ever. Maybe is you don't have the hairpin so tight, then yea, it might work...

Also, by looking that proposals for the circuit in 2001 (http://www.racingcircuits.net/Italy/...osal2001A.html and http://www.racingcircuits.net/Italy/...osal2001B.html), then you can see that they wanted to get rid of Variante Alta, so another good thing to consider...

Well, my edit is (as most are) very simple, and change Imola very little...

I didn't touch Tamburello, because I can't imagine Imola without it. It is a bad chicane, it rarely has overtaking, but it's Imola. Villeneuve is just extended and tightened. Similar to Variante Alta, but not. Tosa, Piratella, and then Acque Minerale. Same with Villeneuve, extended and tightened. I left an awesome small 'esses' section. If you think about it, it's pretty cool, considering it a steep uphill climb up it. Variante Alta is the same as Tamburello, bad pointless chicane, but its not Imola without it. Rivazza is actually similar to the proposals on RacingCircuits.net, and actually, it made me think why they didn't make it, did you see how many people were there during the race??? If they actually did (what my proposal is, or the ones on RC.net), they'd lose so many seating positions. However, never-the-less, who cares. Rivazza is now a tight-ish chicane, with a long loop all the way around. It looks better on paper I reckon, but practically, with spectators and run off and all, I don't know. Finally, Variante Bassa is part of Imola, and I would never change it (mind you, they said the same about the Bus Stop in Spa :P)...

[Mike_Wooshy]

No offence guys I dont like what you have done,
I think that Villeneuve should be blasted upto tosa,
and Variante Alta would also dissipear
I'd keep Acque Minerale as its good corner as it is,
althou I dont know what I'd do with the final corner.

[Lustigson]

I love Imola, but the only way to really improve the track is to reinstate Tamburello. However, since there isn't enough room for run-off, that's not going to happen. I did make a proposal once, which could make is possible, though. I'll look it up later on.

[Lustigson]

Found it. I even kept it on my own site.

[the_royksopp]

Nice freak, but you shouldnt touch Acque Minerali. Thats more a "part of Imola" than Variantes Alta and Bassa.

[Lustigson]

Aque Minerale used to be different from it's current form, TR. Check out the 1981-1994 version. The corner was far more start-stop back then. Why the ever changed it, I don't know.

[maximus]

Some good designs, but why not get rid of the chicane at Villeneuve? IMO I think it would create a better overtaking opportunity into Tosa.

[Mike_Wooshy]

no it doesnt create any better opertunity,
maritan brundle onces comented about it and said he didnt understand why they didnt just re enstate the old run straight to tosa.

[the_royksopp]

Why the ever changed it, I don't know.

My guess is, that in order to compensate for the inserting of the Tamburello and Villeneuve chicanes, both the old Acque Minerale and the old chicane before Variante Bassa was deleted, to not have six chicanes in one circuit.

Villeneuve could actually provide a great overtaking opportunity, better than Tosa would ever be, it's just shaped wrongly.

[Lustigson]

Originally Posted by the_royksopp

The old chicane before Variante Bassa was deleted

That old double, bus-stop-like chicane was changed because of the accident Rubens Barrichello had there on Friday April 29th 1994, not as compensation for ruining Tamburello.

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

Anyone who even dares altering Rivazza is blaspheming.

[Purist]

I don't think Villeneuve will ever have great scope for passing. The run from Tamburello isn't that long, and the exit of Tamburello just doesn't seem to lend itself to helping someone get a tow on the guy in front.

Honestly, if they put in a narrow (2-4 car width) verge, and placed tires or a SAFER barrier in front of the main wall, Tamburello wouldn't be too horrible in its old form.

Variente Alta maybe should be done away with. I think without it they'd have a better run into Rivazza, as far as providing scope for passing is concerned.

The 2000 German and Italian Grands Prix, as well as some starts at Portland, have really turned me off to the idea that chicanes are effective safety devices. Frankly, they seem quite effective at creating an environment in which crashes (often with very hard impacts) are significantly more likely.

[Lustigson]

On the other hand, Purist, there might be a way to re-instate Tamburello in it's old form, but that would take a whole lot of work. In my version, I moved the whole section, say, 20 metres to the left, towards the inside of the track. That way you create the room necessery for run-off.

[f1freak]

I still have a video of Rubens' crash at the old V.Bassa... DAMN!!!... However, I don't think that getting rid of it was the answer, to be honest, it wouldn't have been that big of a crash if he didn't jump into the air, so all that was really needed was to flatten the kerbing...

FW, Rivazza is indeed a good corner, which doesn't really need to be changed. However, considering how little action is really provides, it could be slightly (not as big as my edit) modified to encourage more overtaking now couldn't it... On the other hand, the downhill breaking into the corner, and then the tricky, half throttle, brake on the second part of the corner, it wouldn't really need that much changing...

Purist, chicanes may and indeed to sometimes cause crashes which don't necessarily have to happen. However, lets say (and don't retort by saying 'but the use to do it') there were no chicanes at the old Hockenheim in 2000, the cars would be in a much more dangerous position braking at Bremskurve/Ostkurve. I just had a quick look at some circuits (Imola, Albert Park, Montreal, Monaco, Nurburgring) and thought about a chicane circuit, and I can't imagine how much it would destroy and characteristic of the circuit. Chicanes aren't here to stay (look at Sakhir or Sepang, they don't have any), however, some circuits will continue to have them, as its the chicanes what makes them great...

[f1freak]

Hows this for Tamburello???...

[Lustigson]

Hmm... interesting. You effectively made it a double-apex corner. However, I believe that the upper-most part on your picture will still be too fast with too few run-off.

[f1freak]

Yea, I'm not sure about that, but you might be right...

Well here's my idea... I drew this up, and this is about as detailed as I can get it. Try and redo Tamburello, and you can't do anything on the inside of the track because of houses etc... However, from what I can make out (on TV and the little map I got), there is pretty much nothing but trees between the river and the edge of the track...

[Lustigson]

What about this?



It does need a bit more room on the inside of the track, but perhaps that's possible.

[Purist]

F1F, some tracks still do have "ultra-long" straights that are used: the Nurburgring Nordschleife for example, which the touring cars still run. More to the point though, I don't think the Ostkurve at Hockenheim could be taken flat at 230 mph. Also, having to make the engines last longer would make running at the ragged edge on revs and thus speed for so long less desirable than it was. Then again, in the 50s the manufacturers were capable of making cars that could run flat out for over 40 miles straight (Carrera Panamericana). Anyway, barriers are much more anvanced now than they were even 10-15 years ago, so stopping the cars without injuring drivers is much more possible than say when they broke up the Mulsanne Straight. Chicanes have no real redeeming value for me. You reprofile Tamburello like that and Imola loses a large piece of its identity. Segment Mulsanne, Monza, or the Conrad Straight and it makes those circuits (Le Mans, Monza, Bathurst) less unique and special in the world of motorsport.

I guess what I'm concerned about is to what extent we are willing to go in the name of safety, or in some cases, for the tracks to be able to cover their posteriors in the event of threatened litigation or insurance difficulties. What are we really willing to give up? My personal feeling is that so-called "necessary evils" do not exist. What is "evil" is inherently unnecessary.

[Purist]

To be clear, I maybe did go a bit overboard with the closing comments in that last post.

The point is, I have my own ideas about what should or shouldn't be done in regards to established (historic) racing circuits. I plan to stick to my guns, because I care and if I didn't, those standards wouldn't be worth anything, least of all to me. If I start to slip, I will really start to wonder just how much I care about the circuits, as well as motorsports as a whole.

My proposals may seem "unrealistic", but there are many things that have been done in the sport in the past that I consider positives that I am caonfident can be done now given advances in virtually every field concerning the sport. Also, with my understand, particularly in physics, I am fairly certain that some of the circuit requirements could be toned down witth minimal if any real decrease in safety. Straightaways and fast corners don't need the widest verges, and frankly, a wider verge in those zones provides more room for the cars to re-orient to hit the wall at a steeper angle, rather than having more of a glancing blow. Line the outside walls of significant corners with tires, and/or in the case of high-speed corners, the use of SAFER barriers could help immensely. Reasonable gravel beds (not deserts) should be used at corners where spins are likely (where loss of control is likely), and particularly at chicanes, where there are decent chances of an errant vehicle crossing back over the racing surface.

[pirenzo]

To an extent Purist, I agree with your sentiment that chicanes are an unnecessary hazard. I don't think so with any of the Imola chicanes.

The first two chicanes are very high speed approach, about 20% higher than than for Tamburello chicane, and are also significantly slower, they're clearly an bottleneck point, where you have cars slowing from very high speed and being asked to make a very slow speed double direction change. Potentially you have an errant car travelling at over 200mph broadsiding another car doing just 60mph in the middle of the chicane, a very dangerous situation.

I would caution the over-exhuberant use of SAFER and other such systems, at least as a stopgap measure where you don't have the space for an adequate gravel or tarmac trap (not talking Tilke proportions here).
Firstly, they're only used on ovals, and oval cars are special case vehicles, being the only one's specifically designed to tackle shallow impacts with solid walls, with no other form of arrest at very high speeds. They are already inherently safer themselves, it would be wrong to assume a Formula 1 car could widthstand the same impact speeds with a SAFER barrier. I'm sure they could, but the driver would be shaken up more, to what degree we don't know.

Secondly, what works for top-level single seaters will definitely not translate to other series. Sports prototypes for example are in their shape and construction (wide, rigid floor particularly) inherently stiffer, and less energy absorbing than a single seater. This could effectively negate the benefits of a SAFER barrier and then you're back to the same consequences as would happen with an F1 car hitting an ordinary wall..
A touring car hitting the same wall even at lower speeds could be even more disasterous.

I'm not applying this to Imola and Tamburello particularly, as I happen to think there [i]is[/]i a valid case for removing that chicane, but still, don't forget its not as black and white as using better barriers.

[Schummy]

I align myself pretty much along the general lines of Purist. In the case of Imola (perhaps one of my fav circuits), I definitively would eliminate Villeneuve chicane.

It is a sort of dream to re intro Tamburello again, but, as commented, it has problems. One of them is they reach Villeneuve's kink at a very high speed (don't forget poor Ratzemberger). Sure, I'd like to see again Tamburello, but I just would ask for taking out the second chicane.

Tossa always was a very good braking corner, many glorious manouvres there in the old days. Also the exit is prone to be difficult (Senna and Schumacher spun there in qualifying in the terrible 94 GP).

Piratella is also very good (did you see the advantage there of MS against Alonso?), and Acqua Minerali again very nice (the old ultra tight chicane of 80s-90s was intriguing but ultimately I prefer this classic layout).

I would be tempted to take out Variante Alta, but it is prone to driver's error, so, why to make esaier heir job? . Rivazza is a classic and a hell of a corner (even more if we eliminate V.A.), please don't touch it

I didn't like the old "Barrichello" bus-stop configuration of V.B. Perhaps the current layout with just the last chicane is a bit featureless, but it apparently has some difficulty, it has illustrious victims (Prost, Halkkinnen) and somehow it tend to have action in it.

If we are decided to smoke some unhealthy substances, we can think about the all-flowing layout of Imola: long flat out curved straight from Rivazza to Tamburello (OLD tamburello...) then to Tossa, Piratella, Acqua and flat out to Rivazza!! Max Mosley could faint at this thought...

[Lustigson]

I had another go at Imola. My primary goal was to bring back some of the former glory -- i.e. pre-1994 -- to the track. I think it might succeed this way, but I'm not sure whether any housing or other existing structures are in the way.



As you see, I put back Tamburello, though the corner is now more to the left, creating more room for run-off on the outside. The right part of the run-off should be exactly where it is now.

I also got rid of Villeneuve, which straightens out the run toward Tosa. I tightened Piratella and left the whole part up to Rivazza intact. The exit of that corner is a bit more lose (spelling) now.

Finally, I created a new Variante Bassa at about the same location as the old entry to the bus-stop was. However, that is now the entry of the pit lane, too. As you can see, the pits and paddock are where the old main straight was, thus creating more room. The grandstands and possibly other building would have to be moved, however.

The grey is the new track, the wite the current. Hope you like it. If not, let me know. ;-)

[the_royksopp]

DONT touch Piratella! .

The rest is alright, it'd be very, very fast up to Tosa though.

But i like the new Bassa very much! .