An interesting analysis of crashes

[nickyf1]

Wasnt there a crash at indy during the 70s where a car went off at turn 4 (?) and hit the wall, then the car exploded into flames? Did the driver walk away from that one? And Paul Danas crah earlier on this year, how could that be avoided?

[Jordi]

May you be thinking about Swede Savage's crash at Indy, Nicky?
If so, Savage died a few days later, but I don't recall his exact injuries.


Now, Paul Dana's crash... That is absolutely the worst kind of crash in open-wheel racing, as we saw in Zanardi's crash, as the aerodynamic shape of cars makes them rather small at the front, concentrating all the energy on the nose cone hitting the other car.

It is possible that in the Heidfeld-Sato F1crash at Austria 2002, Sato was saved from any injuries due to the fact that he was hit with the rear of Heidfeld's car, thus having a bigger impact zone (rear wing, gearbox, suspension elements). Sato's cockpit side was cracked, though, and the steering wheel flew out in the impact.

But unlike Zanardi's crash, there were no pictures released of Dana's crash, which makes it the more difficult to analyse it. How much broken was the car? Did parts hit the driver? There is a video but it isn't as crystal clear as the Zanardi or Sato incidents. I think there must be a line of respect for families of deceased drivers, but not to the point of not even showing an image (or a drawing!) of cars crashed.

Surely the people that matter in terms of safety have seen the cars, but I do not understand this policy of censorship. I'm not asking for pictures of drivers that have crashed, we just want to know why things happen.

Tony Renna's crash is another case of a fatal crash without hardly any information.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Jordi

May you be thinking about Swede Savage's crash at Indy, Nicky?
If so, Savage died a few days later, but I don't recall his exact injuries.

Swede Savage actually died some 33 days after the crash in the hospital due to a kidney infection. It's commonly believed that happened as a result of Savage inhaling flames when trapped in the mangled remains of his car. Had more updated medical science been at the doctors' disposal in those days I'm pretty sure Savage would have survived to race another day.

What's really amazing about Savage's crash, however, is that he not only survived the actual crash itself, seeing how destructive it was, but that he never lost conciousness throughout it all. There's a very famous image showing Savage trying to free himself from the remains of his seat after the crash, and other than said flame inhalation (which is killed Art Pollard who crashed during practice, also in 1973 just like Savage, as well) he "only" suffered multiple fractures to both legs.

Add Salt Walther's terrible crash at the start which injured him and several spectators quite badly to the loss of Pollard and Savage and 1973 easily becomes one of the worst years ever seen at the Speedway.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Jordi

Tony Renna's crash is another case of a fatal crash without hardly any information.

This is all I've heard. A lot of it is rumour, so don't take it for definite:

Allegedly, he lost control at top speed and flew into the barrier. The car was completely destroyed, much of it ended up in the grandstands. Another part - the monocoque - was "hanging" in the catch-fencing

All the info - videos, pictures etc - was hidden by IMS because it was so bad, and would've put many people off visiting, as an accident during the 500 would've killed many spectators for sure, especially where Renna crashed - the zone for wheelchair users

Another with little info is the accident which the French driver Sebastian Enroljas in pre-quali for Le Mans in 1997. All the photos were bought by his family. The car hit the top of the barrier before flying into the trees

I don't like to compare accidents, but they have to be up there in the worst accidents ever. Also, Yokoyama, the Japanese driver, who crashed into a bridge at Fuji, isn't one I want to see

There are others, some of which we may never here about

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by jab

This is all I've heard. A lot of it is rumour, so don't take it for definite:

Allegedly, he lost control at top speed and flew into the barrier. The car was completely destroyed, much of it ended up in the grandstands. Another part - the monocoque - was "hanging" in the catch-fencing

All the info - videos, pictures etc - was hidden by IMS because it was so bad, and would've put many people off visiting, as an accident during the 500 would've killed many spectators for sure, especially where Renna crashed - the zone for wheelchair users

To be honest I doubt it's true the IMS hid all material showing Renna's crash, especially since the IRL's own investigation almost exclusively had to rely on data recorded by the black box as well as the few eyewitness-accounts that were available (IRL officials even officially admitted it would be difficult to find out exactly what happened due to the lack of visual evidence in the form of video and/or photographs). IMS withholding material from the IRL - which basically would mean they would withhold material from themselves - wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

Not to mention it not only was in the interest of the IRL but IMS as well to find out why there had been yet another car go airborne in 2003, adding to Mario Andretti's wild aerobatics during Indy 500 practice and Wheldon's flip during the race as well as Kenny Brack's terrible crash at Texas (although that one was a bit special seeing as Scheckter's car worked as a ramp) less than two weeks before Renna died. Flying cars, especially the ones coming close to spectator areas, aren't good for business.

As for the crash itself, this is the conclusion the official investigation came to:

The accident review revealed that Renna’s car entered Turn 3 at 227 mph. At a point just past the apex of the turn, the car did a 90-degree spin to the left into the infield grass. The car began to skip through the grass as it traveled sideways, allowing air underneath the car and causing it to lift into the air. While in the air the car spun approximately another 30 degrees to the left.

The car traveled across the track through the air and made contact with the debris fence on the outside retaining wall in Turn 3. IRL officials said it appears that the most significant damage and resulting fatal injuries were caused when the bottom of the car made direct contact with one of the debris fence support posts, which is part of the Speedway’s fence system.

The spectator debris fences at the Speedway worked as designed, and because Renna’s car struck the fence and not the wall, it did not impact the Speedway’s SAFER Barrier.

As the car entered Turn 3, all the data indicated there were no mechanical failures on any of the car’s equipment that are monitored by sensors. However, while the data acquisition systems are comprehensive, there are elements of the car that are unable to be tracked by the systems. Because of this, it is impossible to completely rule out mechanical failure as a cause of the accident.

I wonder if the basic design of the catch fences changed after the accidents involving Renna and Brack, seeing how both were made worse by the fact that the car struck a support post. I seem to recall that Texas made some changes to their fence, but did IMS do the same?

[Jordi]

The questions that remain in Renna's crash, therefore, are "why the car did spin in the first place?" and "what caused it to fly to the wall?"

If the grass, as it is implemented in the report, caused the car to lift, why does the Speedway have any grass at all in the inside of the turns?

[jab]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

To be honest I doubt it's true the IMS hid all material showing Renna's crash, especially since the IRL's own investigation almost exclusively had to rely on data recorded by the black box as well as the few eyewitness-accounts that were available (IRL officials even officially admitted it would be difficult to find out exactly what happened due to the lack of visual evidence in the form of video and/or photographs). IMS withholding material from the IRL - which basically would mean they would withhold material from themselves - wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

Yeah but I've only seen one picture relating to the accident - a screenshot off a news channel, showing the catchfencing completely destroyed and damage to the stands behind. There would've been CCTV at the track at the time, surely, and someone was bound to have a camera there. But there is no video of it and no pics

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by jab

Yeah but I've only seen one picture relating to the accident - a screenshot off a news channel, showing the catchfencing completely destroyed and damage to the stands behind. There would've been CCTV at the track at the time, surely, and someone was bound to have a camera there. But there is no video of it and no pics

The footage of the damaged catch fence was most likely taken by a news chopper, no doubt flying there once it got known Renna had crashed.

As for the CCTV, I'm not so sure it was used per default since it was a private test. Might be now though, after Renna's crash. Also, when it comes to cameras there were very few people there, again because it was a private test - heck, it was only a mere handful, if that, that even witnessed the crash with their own eyes.

[jab]

You'd be surprised. There's bound to be something out there. Whether it be on a film (pics or vids) in a cupboard stored away in someone's house, or in a safe in IMS. There must be something

You'd think there was also no footage of Patrick Depailler's fatal crash in 1980 at Hockenheim, but there is, albeit from a long shot. I've never seen it but apparently it is from the 1st chicane. I don't think it shows the impact but certainly debris. Reason: filming an ad for Marlboro

[Tony Clifton]

We are also forgetting the Jacque Villenueve/Hiro Matsu****a crash at the 1994 Phoenix International Raceway turn 4.

I was at that race. After the crash Villeneuve stated that he did not see the yellow flag.
He hit King Hiro in the left rear side of his car.

It was Jacque's first CART race, almost killed him before he got a full race in!

I did not see the direct hit, but I sure heared the huge collision between the cars. Jacque came in at a very high rate of speed.

I have that crash on video, maybe one day I can post it on youtube.

[racerkeke]

I remember that one! I was at home watching the race live while ironing (if you gotta iron, why not do something interesting too?). I learned my lesson, because I scorched the heck out of a very nice shirt after that crash, standing there with my mouth open trying to figure out if one or both were goners.

This crash resulted in a change of policy for observers at ovals, BTW -- we were asked to show a waving yellow when the light went on, so there could be no more "I didn't see it" excuses.

keke

[Davhut]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatters

Have there been any other serious accidents at that corner before?


Decades ago Geoffrey Brabham went OVER the guardrails and into the trees in about the same spot, single seat Can-Am car.

[Jordi]

That was one heavy it, and it's surprising that both Jacques and Hiro got away without injuries... However a few inches more towards the cockpit and it would have been a different story...

[blueflagger]

Originally Posted by Davhut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatters

Have there been any other serious accidents at that corner before?


Decades ago Geoffrey Brabham went OVER the guardrails and into the trees in about the same spot, single seat Can-Am car.

I think it was an IMSA GTP actually. Lots of IMSA cars had spectacular but major-injury-free incidents there. I remember the bodywork of a BMW going airborne and then landing back down on the car like a cartoon. I also remember a cameraman catching a view of the underside of Porsche that passed only a couple of feet in front of his lens. The car was airborne with the left side panel facing the pavement.

[StuiE]

This is the Hiro/Villeneuve crash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBVwaaWIDU0 Hiro was indeed very lucky, it was sort of similar to Zanardi's crash, but lower speed and luckily hit a different area.

[Davhut]

Originally Posted by blueflagger

I think it was an IMSA GTP actually. Lots of IMSA cars had spectacular but major-injury-free incidents there. I remember the bodywork of a BMW going airborne and then landing back down on the car like a cartoon. I also remember a cameraman catching a view of the underside of Porsche that passed only a couple of feet in front of his lens. The car was airborne with the left side panel facing the pavement.

I've still got pieces of the sandwich body/tub...small ones, and its definitely VDS red. Can't remember if it was a true VDS (I think so) or the Lola predecessor. I remember Geoff was damaged enough to miss the race.
I can't imagine a flat stick Can Am car going off into the trees at that "kink!"