[WEC] Kolles Prototype

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Prototype challenge class?

The last time there was an irrelevant oreca-only class to make the grid look bigger it was called that, so why not. I'd easily give up 10-15 of them to one extra LMH or GTE car. So giving up just one for even a prospect of an extra LMH is a no-brainer.

[chernaudi]

Sadly:

1: LMP2 caters to pro-am drivers/pay drivers (money)

2: Oreca sells a lot of cars (money)

3: Oreca is French (enough said--ACO have a history of playing the nationalistic pride card)

[Tique]

By clicking on the below link, a beginning of an explenation (in french):


https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...-belles-annees


Frédérix Lesquin is saying:

"Le dossier est assez complexe et nous allons communiquer sous peu sur le sujet. Ce que je peux dire est que le dossier ne remplissait pas tous les critères."


"The file is quite complex et we will communicate shortly on the matter. What I want to say is that the file was not filling all the croerias"

So let see....

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

It's starting to look like Glickenhaus will be the first and the last privateer Hypercar entrant of this emerging era.


4 cars is not oversubscribed. The prototype challenge class is just grid filler.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Sadly:

1: LMP2 caters to pro-am drivers/pay drivers (money)

2: Oreca sells a lot of cars (money)

3: Oreca is French (enough said--ACO have a history of playing the nationalistic pride card)

I am sorry to be a bit blunt here, but those comments are quite narrow minded.
Yes the cars are now one manufacture, but the teams running them are certainly not!
LMP2 have a lot of good hardcore teams running, who either is a certain future Hypercar entry (AF Corsa) or teams who has the caliber to buy hypercars and run them as privateers.

The big LMP2 field is in my view an investment in the future.

[bella]

you said that a lot more diplomatically than i could.

like it or not, lmp2 is the backbone of ACO endurance racing. oreca are raking it in because they’ve build a solid, quick, easy to set up car. the racing is pretty good and there’s some outstanding drivers involved.

people on here need to learn to use “in my opinion”, if only to understand that their opinion isn’t the centre of the world - the irony of me making the above statement then this one isn’t lost.

it’s a shame that kolles have to go all-in on their car by nature and can’t fall back on a p2 entry to stay in the sport but signatech/alpine are showing how the play the game in that respect. and the glick setup and investment is worlds apart from what kolles are trying to do.

[CTD]

Not being granted a full WEC season entry does not prevent Kolles from entering the car, race by race, once it is homologated, does it?

It means that Kolles will have to pay additional (and multiple) entry fees, but at least will be able to showcase the car and reel in the sponsorships need to be participate next year.

[Racing Harz]

Originally Posted by CTD

Not being granted a full WEC season entry does not prevent Kolles from entering the car, race by race, once it is homologated, does it?

No race by race entrys 2022!
https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...capacity-grid/

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by CTD

Not being granted a full WEC season entry does not prevent Kolles from entering the car, race by race, once it is homologated, does it?

It means that Kolles will have to pay additional (and multiple) entry fees, but at least will be able to showcase the car and reel in the sponsorships need to be participate next year.

This season it does, as the WEC isn’t accepting individual race entries for 2022 because of the record high car counts.

[Steve McQ]

Yes, and please remember that race by race entries are specifically forbidden for Hypercars since the category has been introduced. So it would not have worked anyway.

ACO's position regarding ByKolles is not very fair when you look back in 2021 : several GTE-Am cars were consistently missing races, and still are back on the full year grid in 2022.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by bella

like it or not, lmp2 is the backbone of ACO endurance racing. oreca are raking it in because they’ve build a solid, quick, easy to set up car. the racing is pretty good and there’s some outstanding drivers involved.

I do like it! Prior to the recent performance peg backs, the cars were blisteringly fast with pro drivers, and they are inexpensive enough to allow a lot of teams to buy and run them. The racing is good and it allows young talent an opportunity in the sport. I have never seen the class as grid filler, but a way to attract more teams and people and sponsors to the sport.

Back to Kolles.....tough spot for the team to be in, and I can't imagine how hard it is to build a car from scratch. But I also would appreciate the ACO allowing for race by race entries from teams that make the effort. It is not like they just bought a turn key racecar and are trying to get on the grid. They are following the spirit of the top class and aren't being allowed to even try. Maybe they can run some tests and show the ACO they are serious and things may change down the line?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by bella

people on here need to learn to use “in my opinion”

Just to save me some typing lets agree that every time I don't begin a sentence with "In YOUR opinion", the following will be my opinion by default. Because #MePerspnally is bad enough at keeping things concise as it is.

If something that is much like F2, but way uglier, is the backbone of ACO racing, we have a major problem. In sportscar racing, especially(!), there should be no spec classes outside the lower training series. It's a competition of constructors and their machines first and foremost, then people. Always has been. Even in the days of 956 domination there were other challenges and even within the Porsche ranks teams could develop their cars.

[chernaudi]

Well, in my opinion then there should've been LMP2 Pro (unlimited driver certification--all pro line ups allowed) and LMP2 Pro-Am (at least one silver or bronze driver), but that would sort of invalidate LMH as it exists right now (more expensive and not a ton faster without the LMP2 peg backs) and, in IMSA, DPI, where similar things have happened (LMP2 getting pegged back in favor of the preferred top class).


Or, maybe the ACO should've introduced BOP for LMP1 and held off on LMH/LMDH until the new LMP2s were ready to align tech regs.


The only race by race deal for LMH right now is LM, and even that's scratched because you have to run at least one race before LM for BOP reasons (Peugeot if they want to make the cut for '22).


I'd argue that LMP2 is where it is is because the cars are relatively cheap, the driver allotments (which the top teams obviously exploit by putting young hot shoes into the cars who are classed as silvers basically because they're rookies), and, even compared to GTE-Am, is the entry level class for the WEC.

[Pandamasque]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ce-at-le-mans/

So the official word is, it's not double standards. It's some other criteria of which they decided not to tell us.

“I can’t give more explanation on this. It is a decision [from] the selection committee.”

Just when you think WEC communication has definitely hit rock bottom there's suddenly a nocking noise from below that.

[Badlands99]

Reading between the lines I am guessing someone said 'Where is the road Car/Manufacturer tie in?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Badlands99

Reading between the lines I am guessing someone said 'Where is the road Car/Manufacturer tie in?

That was never a requirement in LMH, as far as I know. But let's keep guessing.

[chernaudi]

Maybe follow the money? Peugeot is a big car maker and is extant. And their dollars/Euros/Francs speak loader than where ever Colin Kolles gets his money from.

[Adam43]

People are guessing. The Autosport article doesn’t attribute it to anything specific, but discusses some things it could be.
https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/w...-2022/7222367/

These includes a number of administrative criteria as well as whether the team has a proven track-record to justify an ability to compete in world championship-level events.

Additionally, the LMH rules demand that an entrant must prove that it has an association with an existing automotive brand.
…

[bella]

2021 wec sporting regs have this:

3.2.3 Specific condition of entry in the Hypercar category
Besides respecting the provisions of Article 3.3.1, a Competitor wishing to enter in the Hypercar category must take part in the Le Mans Hypercar FIA World Endurance Championship;
For this purpose, he must:
o Fill in a specific entry form,
o Present an FIA international Competitor’s licence.

Except for Competitors wishing to enter the Le Mans Hypercar category with an LMP1 NH car*, a Competitor wishing to enter in the Le Mans Hypercar category in the FIA World Endurance Championship may enter the homologated car under the name of a car brand. For this purpose, the Competitor must address to the Endurance Committee:

- An application letter co-signed by the Competitor’s representative (see Article 1.3.2) and the car brand’s representative (and, if different, the car manufacturer’s representative). They must be fully and legally entitled to do so by their parent companies – this being placed under the Competitor’s responsibility;
- A presentation dossier including information on the brand and its commitment to the Championship.

The Endurance Commission will review applications forwarded by the Endurance Committee and may require any further information from the applicant. The Endurance Commission will rule in the last resort, at its entire discretion, on the admissibility of a car brand and car name to the Championship.

* Homologation of non-hybrid LMP1 cars is accessible only to privateers as specified in the Technical Regulations in effect (Article 1.1.1).

very easy to see where potential applicants could trip up there.

[chernaudi]

Maybe Bella's point is that maybe Kolles bit off a bit more than they could chew by trying to enter in as a factory branded effort, or simply screwed up their paperwork (same thing has happened in some modern small arms procurements a few times in recent years). Especially as they are basically a privateer team and could've done just like Glickenhaus and entered LMH non-hybrid, which is aimed pretty much exclusively at privateers or small manufacturers.

Of course, combined with Kolles' record of half-baked efforts and often spectacular DNFs in races, could also just mean that the ACO and the Endurance Committee didn't take them as seriously as Peugeot. Which, even with as insane as Peugeot's car seems right now, seems easy to do.

Just look at Glickenhaus. They may be an upstart team in terms or prototype racing and say what you will of what they say on social media, Jim and his guys have pretty much done what they said they were going to do. Can't really hold Kolles up on that record of success.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Maybe Bella's point is that maybe Kolles bit off a bit more than they could chew by trying to enter in as a factory branded effort, or simply screwed up their paperwork (same thing has happened in some modern small arms procurements a few times in recent years). Especially as they are basically a privateer team and could've done just like Glickenhaus and entered LMH non-hybrid, which is aimed pretty much exclusively at privateers or small manufacturers.

Of course, combined with Kolles' record of half-baked efforts and often spectacular DNFs in races, could also just mean that the ACO and the Endurance Committee didn't take them as seriously as Peugeot. Which, even with as insane as Peugeot's car seems right now, seems easy to do.

Just look at Glickenhaus. They may be an upstart team in terms or prototype racing and say what you will of what they say on social media, Jim and his guys have pretty much done what they said they were going to do. Can't really hold Kolles up on that record of success.

Honestly I can't understand outcry because of bykolles drop...
bykolles is a team that was liquidated and created again more than few times in different countries out of clear fiscal reasons, has a long backlog of unpaid debts to suppliers, took part to full WEC seasons only in 2015 and 2016, more than once expressed its disappointment to ACO last year and is people still really wondering why ACO didn't accept it?
Honestly which financial and technical guarantees could give a team like that?
But to me is the former ACO CEO/managment the one to blame, old managment always let lmp1 manufacturers and team come and go as they pleased as long to keep something "interesting" to show... it's natural bykolles tried to access WEC the same easy ways he managed to do in the past...
I'm glad new CEO seems to have a more harsh and firm attitude, he said no to kolles and told peugeot his conditions to let them be at le mans.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Perhaps Kolles has being too honest

Not sure the words Kolles and honest have ever been used together before.

[Simmi]

Can't read all of this but article says Vanwall were not aware of this ByKolles project!!!

https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...vanwall-racing

Absolutely superb scenes. Lotus all over again.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Can't read all of this but article says Vanwall were not aware of this ByKolles project!!!

https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...vanwall-racing

Absolutely superb scenes. Lotus all over again.

Sadly, Endurance-Info has lost a lot of credibility since they went "paywall-mode".
They used to be excellent, though.

[Adam43]

It is the whole situation that the ACO did not grant an entry for, which is not really surprising. The full season reason is unlikely to be it.

OT. There is a media thread somewhere, although it might just be North America. It’s quite moany, so very suitable. Paywall doesn’t lose you credibility, it loses you readers. Probably means you have to maximise quality and credibility to sustain readers. But there is a potential media thread discussion there.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Can't read all of this but article says Vanwall were not aware of this ByKolles project!!!

Of course they didn't, how could they know about the Kolles project in 1960.

On a serious note, do you think that Kolles registered the trade mark without so much as googling the name, and really made no effort to come to an agreement with the Vanwall firm that's supposed to be building Grand Prix car replicas? Or maybe the deal fell through and the other party is trying to distance themselves from Kolles.

It looks messy and I think this explains why the WEC selection committee was so reluctant to mention any details to avoid further damaging the reputation of all involved.