Home Forum T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: OldRacingCars.com  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Motorsport History > The Driver Files


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 8 Mar 2003, 12:48 (Ref:1793693)   #1
Vitesse
Veteran
 
Vitesse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
United Kingdom
Bath, England
Posts: 785
Vitesse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridVitesse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by eclectic
............for me the best driver of all time was a young Scottish Farmer who went from racing his first banger to winning F1 in 18 months! Mind you if Moss, Fangio or Nuvolari had the technical advantage of a Lotus under them.......
I think that statement needs correction....

Jim Clark's first competitive event was a sprint at Stobs Camp on June 3rd 1956 (which he won in his Sunbeam Mk3) and his first race was at Crimond on June 13th 1956 (8th in Ian Scott-Watson's DKW Sonderklasse}. Neither of these cars could be considered "bangers". He progressed through a Porsche 1600S, a D-Type Jaguar, various Lotus Elites, a Triumph TR3, a Lister-Jaguar and a Tojeiro-Jaguar before his first single-seater race in a FJ Gemini on Boxing Day 1959. He signed to drive F1 with Aston Martin but after they withdrew he was snapped up by Lotus, for whom he was already driving very successfully in FJ and F2: his first F1 race was the Dutch GP on June 5th 1960 and his first F1 win was the non-championship Pau GP on April 3rd 1961 - he went on to win three more races in South Africa in December 1961, plus the Lombank Trophy at Snetterton and the Aintree 200 in early 1962. His first WC win was the Belgian GP on June 17th 1962, just over six years after he'd first raced.

As to the supposed Lotus technical advantage: he won at Pau in a Lotus 18, essentially a year-old car with an old 4-cylinder Climax engine. The other 1961 wins were in a Lotus 21, a development of the 18, while the early 1962 races were in a Lotus 24, the last spaceframe car. It was not until the 25 appeared that Chapman's reputation as an innovator really took off and even then Clark only finished twice in his first seven outings in the 25 (9th in Holland, 1st in Belgium). By the end of the year the 25 had proved itself in Jimmy's hands, winning WC races in Britain, the USA and Mexico and two more non-championship events.

Last edited by John Turner; 23 Dec 2006 at 11:20. Reason: Driver Files edit.
Vitesse is offline  
__________________
Good friends we have, Oh, good friends we have lost
Along the way.
In this great future, You can't forget your past

Bob Marley
Quote
Old 8 Mar 2003, 13:22 (Ref:1793694)   #2
eclectic
Racer
 
eclectic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Scotland
Stirling, Scotland.
Posts: 489
eclectic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I stand corrected!

Oh well, at least I can award myself 8 points for successful misremembering and exaggeration, it must be 5 years since I last looked at JC's biography.

However Jim Clark's arrival was pretty meteoric by any standards!
eclectic is offline  
__________________
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting"

Steve McQueen.
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2003, 01:05 (Ref:529413)   #3
Yoong Montoya
Veteran
 
Yoong Montoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,421
Yoong Montoya should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Clark, Jim

I haven't seen him race, but he sounds like a brilliant driver. How good would you say Jim Clark was in your opinion?
Yoong Montoya is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2003, 02:22 (Ref:529479)   #4
mickj
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location:
australia
Posts: 467
mickj should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
My Opinion

I saw Jim Clark race here in Australia in the Tasman series 1964,65,66,67,68 at Sandown and Longford.

In the 1968 race (Sandown) he raced Chris Amon they finished a car length apart (in stifling heat) Jim got out of his Lotus and looked as if he could do another 100 laps and poor Chris Amon had to be lifted from the Ferrari.
A TOP driver and a Gentleman.
To me he is the Best ever.
In 2001 I visited his grave in Chirnside Scotland.

Last edited by mickj; 9 Mar 2003 at 02:24.
mickj is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2003, 11:20 (Ref:529897)   #5
SPman
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2002
New Zealand-Maori
West Australia
Posts: 64
SPman should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Aaahhh.. but Chris Amon to a party.....
SPman is offline  
__________________
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2003, 12:31 (Ref:529962)   #6
JGM
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 164
JGM should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's impossible to compare drivers of different eras but suffice to say that he ought to feature on anybody's list of the ten best-ever drivers. Quite a lot of people regard him as THE Best Ever but I think people's judgement on thse things tends to be dictated by their age. Whoever was the best when they were aged 18 - 25 remains fixed in their mind as the greatest ever.
JGM is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2003, 15:36 (Ref:530158)   #7
Vitesse
Veteran
 
Vitesse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
United Kingdom
Bath, England
Posts: 785
Vitesse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridVitesse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Definitely in the top 10 of all time and the benchmark against whom all early 60s drivers were measured. A natural driver who could get into any car and drive it on the limit immediately, simply driving round any problem. Jimmy could handle with ease cars which others considered undriveable - the Lotus 40 for example, a lethally overpowered sports car with evil handling, often described as "the Lotus 30 with ten more problems".

In 1964 Jimmy was invited to try a pre-War ERA at the French GP meeting. He'd never even sat in the thing before, yet managed to better the owner's fastest lap by two seconds: on his first flying lap! Awesome.

The previous year he should have won the Indy 500, had Parnelli Jones' team not managed to avoid a rightful disqualification for dropping oil. That was Jimmy's first trip to the Brickyard. He was in contention in 1964 before his car failed, won in 1965 and came second in 1966 (Clark thought he'd won, but as Graham Hill put it: "I drank the milk, mate!")

This remarkable ability to drive any car in any condition made him a terrible test driver though - he'd just shrug and get on with it! Graham Hill was hired back by Lotus in 1967 for his testing abilities - Chapman knew that Clark was not the man to develop the 49 to raceworthiness, but nevertheless Jimmy put his car on pole in its first race.

Ironically, it may be those very abilities which led to Clark's death at Hockenheim: there is a widely-held belief that one of the rear tyres on his Lotus 48 was slowly deflating. Lesser drivers would have stopped to change the wheel, Jimmy perhaps just drove around the problem, only for the tyre to deflate even more and cause the car to leave the road ....

A true Great.
Vitesse is offline  
__________________
Good friends we have, Oh, good friends we have lost
Along the way.
In this great future, You can't forget your past

Bob Marley
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2003, 21:47 (Ref:530637)   #8
ensign14
Veteran
 
ensign14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
British Antarctic Territory
Deception Island
Posts: 3,809
ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!
The very best ever.
ensign14 is offline  
__________________
Birmingham City FC. Founded 1875. League Cup Winners 2011.
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2003, 10:47 (Ref:531133)   #9
krt917
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location:
Fleet
Posts: 1,812
krt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridkrt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quite apart from his Grand Prix successes - 25 wins in 72 starts, Jimmy was quick in anything:
-Won the British Saloon Car Championship in Lotus Cortina (1964?)
-Raced an aging DBR1 Aston to third at Le Mans in 1960, having 'done a Moss' to lead the early stages.
-Shocked the big teams at the Nurburgring by leading them at the Nurburgring in the little Lotus in the early stages.
-Showed all the rally drivers how to do it in the 1966 RAC before sticking it into the scenery (well, nobody is perfect!).

He probably should have been 1964 and 1967 World Chmapion to add to '63 and '65 had it not been for car failures and a pants scoring system.
krt917 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2003, 11:10 (Ref:531161)   #10
Vitesse
Veteran
 
Vitesse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
United Kingdom
Bath, England
Posts: 785
Vitesse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridVitesse should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by krt917
He probably should have been 1964 and 1967 World Chmapion to add to '63 and '65 had it not been for car failures and a pants scoring system.
Car failures are a fact of life in racing, especially if you drove a Lotus in the 60s, but you can't blame the points system for him not being champion in those years. However you stack it up, Jimmy was outscored by Hill and Surtees in 1964 and by Hulme and Brabham in 1967.

If anyone was robbed of the title in 1964 it was Graham Hill.
Vitesse is offline  
__________________
Good friends we have, Oh, good friends we have lost
Along the way.
In this great future, You can't forget your past

Bob Marley
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2003, 11:14 (Ref:531166)   #11
Heebeegeetee
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location:
Sutton Coldfield, UK
Posts: 517
Heebeegeetee should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A magazine in the UK fairly recently (Motorsport?)tried to detemine the best driver ever out of the world champions since 1950. They came up with Clark.

I once enjoyed reading an article by one of the Lotus mechanics of that era. He said that Clarks brake pads would last for ever, whereas they would change Hills' after a meeting. I think the quote went something like "...I mean, we used to change them after a few races 'cos it would get embarrasing..."
Heebeegeetee is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2003, 16:57 (Ref:531667)   #12
gfm
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 897
gfm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgfm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Clark was IMHO an absolute star. I think the thing I learned from watching him, was that like a truely great conductor, his input was effortless. I was always impressed by those at the front who didn't look as though they were trying.
Certainly a top ten contender.
I didn't warm to his character though, because there was little sign of it.
His relationship with Chapman was interesting though and I was always surprised when Graham Hill got near or beat him.

Last edited by gfm; 10 Mar 2003 at 16:59.
gfm is offline  
__________________
John M
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2003, 18:10 (Ref:531780)   #13
krt917
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location:
Fleet
Posts: 1,812
krt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridkrt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitesse
Jimmy was outscored by Hill and Surtees in 1964 and Hulme and Brabham in 1967
I take your point on car failures and 1964 - Graham was certainly unlucky to be punted off by Bandini.

1967, however, is different due to the points scoring system. I'm afraid I am one of those people who believes that the point of a race is to find a winner, therefore the point of a championship (ie. a series of races) is to find the car/driver who wins the most often. As a result, Clark's 4 wins in '67 - superior to anyone elses - should have given him the title. I know consistency is important, but it shouldn't overcome actual winning (unless in exceptional circumstances, like loads of 1 or 2-time winners such as in 1982).

The worst example of these are Moss in 1958 against Hawthorn - 4 wins should NEVER be beaten by 1 - and the Mansell-Piquet years in 1986-87.

One thing is indesputable - we are talking about one of the greatest.

Last edited by John Turner; 18 Dec 2006 at 10:15. Reason: Driver Files edit
krt917 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2003, 21:43 (Ref:532055)   #14
glyn parham
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
United Kingdom
Strood
Posts: 292
glyn parham should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by krt917
Quite apart from his Grand Prix successes - 25 wins in 72 starts, Jimmy was quick in anything:
-Won the British Saloon Car Championship in Lotus Cortina (1964?)
-Raced an aging DBR1 Aston to third at Le Mans in 1960, having 'done a Moss' to lead the early stages.
-Shocked the big teams at the Nurburgring by leading them at the Nurburgring in the little Lotus in the early stages.
-Showed all the rally drivers how to do it in the 1966 RAC before sticking it into the scenery (well, nobody is perfect!).
Absolutely true, a real racer and a gentleman as well. As a young, easily impressed boy, Jimmy was my hero and I can still remember asking for his autograph at Brands Hatch, the response being very polite, despite my asking a very juvenile question at the same time.
Those who saw his drive at Brands in the Cortina in 1965 when he seemed to take his brain out and really fling the car round the track was something else. If I remember he all but broke the outright saloon lap record that day and the car was hardly ever pointing in a straight line (his namesake Roger Clark would have been proud).He probably saw most of the race that day through the side windows!
He wasnt afraid to drive cars that would not win races either, hands up all those who saw him drive the Felday at the 1966 Gaurds trophy meeting, when Surtees, Hill, Mclaren etc were in Group 7 cars.
A great driver, sadly missed, but never forgoten.

Last edited by John Turner; 18 Dec 2006 at 10:16. Reason: Driver Files edit
glyn parham is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Mar 2003, 19:44 (Ref:537293)   #15
Roger Clark
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location:
Cheshire England
Posts: 95
Roger Clark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Vitesse

This remarkable ability to drive any car in any condition made him a terrible test driver though - he'd just shrug and get on with it! Graham Hill was hired back by Lotus in 1967 for his testing abilities - Chapman knew that Clark was not the man to develop the 49 to raceworthiness, but nevertheless Jimmy put his car on pole in its first race.

Ironically, it may be those very abilities which led to Clark's death at Hockenheim: there is a widely-held belief that one of the rear tyres on his Lotus 48 was slowly deflating. Lesser drivers would have stopped to change the wheel, Jimmy perhaps just drove around the problem, only for the tyre to deflate even more and cause the car to leave the road ....

I have to disagree with this. By 1967, Clark had become a very fine test driver according to Chapman. The reason that Hill did the initial test driving in the 49 was that Clark was a tax exile and unable to enter the UK, except for the British GP.

It was Hill, not Clark, who put the 49 on pole at Zandvoort, though Clark won the race.

Lastly, I thought the post-accident investigation concluded that Clark's tyre would have remained fully inflated by centrifugal force until he slowed down. There was no way that even he could have detected that anything was wrong until it was too late.

Last edited by Roger Clark; 15 Mar 2003 at 19:44.
Roger Clark is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jim Clark Pistonbroke Tributes Forum 2 18 Apr 2006 21:35
Jim Clark - new print. Andrew Kitson Motorsport Art & Photography 2 24 Mar 2006 19:34
Jim Clark Rally Horsebox Rallying & Rallycross 7 12 Jul 2005 07:27
Jim Clark Rally Alpina Rallying & Rallycross 29 17 Jul 2003 12:25


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.