IMSA: USCR 2018

[TF110]

So it is an Acura. Cool they keep with the recent American prototype history and badge it as such. The new Acura mesh grille will look a lot cleaner (if they use it) than Honda's on an lmp imo. Can't wait to see it. Hopefully it's as good as the Caddy and looks as good as the Mazda (aside the huge windscreen )

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I'm just disappointed that Oreca, Penske, and Honda are all pushing rumors that have no basis in reality. I mean, those guys are clearly confirming rumors that they had earlier denied. Clearly the HNA DPi will never happen.

As for the motor, I'm assuming it will be pretty closely related to the one that did this last year in 3.5L form:



And then did something similar at Sebring and Petit Le Mans. Now that motor was a little more restricted, but adding ~50hp shouldn't be an issue.

Chris

I'm quite sure that HPD 3.5 engine used last year by ESM and MSR was already close to the 600hp range. Anyway, amazing new! penske will be the ultimate competitor for WTR and AXR in next years.

Let's check that: IMSA gained 4 manufacturers involved in the very first year (mazda, GM, HPD and nissan.... well about the latter... let's say 3.5 manufacturers )

WEC lost audi last year and soon or late will lose porsche too.
Aco, you know how to play at your game

[chernaudi]

They gained them by playing cheap. The Cadillac is little more than a Dallara with a GM small block V8 and a few Cadillac styling cues (most of the body changes were aimed at performance gains), little more than Audi used to do with their LMP cars.

And I doubt that the ACO would've lost Audi (and maybe soon Porsche) if not due to VAG politics and the ACO's own bias towards hybrids and jacking up the cost to compete.

IE, no ERS Incentive and changing the rules every three years is what cost the ACO there. As well as not recognizing that not every car maker in the world wants to race a hybrid or race with a $100-200 million dollar budget.

[MrBloodmuffins]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

They gained them by playing cheap. The Cadillac is little more than a Dallara with a GM small block V8 and a few Cadillac styling cues (most of the body changes were aimed at performance gains), little more than Audi used to do with their LMP cars.

And I doubt that the ACO would've lost Audi (and maybe soon Porsche) if not due to VAG politics and the ACO's own bias towards hybrids and jacking up the cost to compete.

IE, no ERS Incentive and changing the rules every three years is what cost the ACO there. As well as not recognizing that not every car maker in the world wants to race a hybrid or race with a $100-200 million dollar budget.

I heard repeatedly that the Cadillac DPi was designed first with Dallara and they put in a few changes to make the "generic" bodywork different. That would explain both why the DPi VR has been so successful and why the Dallara P2 has been "lacking in downforce".

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Let's check that: IMSA gained 4 manufacturers involved in the very first year (mazda, GM, HPD and nissan.... well about the latter... let's say 3.5 manufacturers )

Yes, let's check that. Last year Imsa had...Mazda, gm and hpd. Then someone not named Nissan brought in a Nissan engine. Close.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by MrBloodmuffins

I heard repeatedly that the Cadillac DPi was designed first with Dallara and they put in a few changes to make the "generic" bodywork different. That would explain both why the DPi VR has been so successful and why the Dallara P2 has been "lacking in downforce".

That's true. Cadillac DPi aero is a GM heavily revised and updated version of dallara standard bodywork + heavy work on drivetrain. Speaking about %, I'd say 70% GM effort 30% dallara effort.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Yes, let's check that. Last year Imsa had...Mazda, gm and hpd. Then someone not named Nissan brought in a Nissan engine. Close.

Honestly you can't compare ESM/MSR effort with 2018 semi-work penske HPD effort... the same can be said about WTR/AXR/SoD 2014-2016 full private programs with (who more, who less) GM backed WRT and ARX programs.
Mazda's effort in speedsource program is quite poor, as usual; about nissan I stepped back from 4 to 3.5, just because nissan dpi is a standard ligier with a different nose and gt-r gt3 engine on back.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by canaglia

I'm quite sure that HPD 3.5 engine used last year by ESM and MSR was already close to the 600hp range. Anyway, amazing new! penske will be the ultimate competitor for WTR and AXR in next years.

Let's check that: IMSA gained 4 manufacturers involved in the very first year (mazda, GM, HPD and nissan.... well about the latter... let's say 3.5 manufacturers )

WEC lost audi last year and soon or late will lose porsche too.
Aco, you know how to play at your game

Why does everything need to be a "My train set is better than your train set" contest? Why can't we just enjoy what we have? Could also point out that without ACO classes, IMSA has just GTD. And if you take away SRO classes, IMSA has some businessmen looking at race tracks talking about how nice it'd be to have some cars on them. So without the ACOs game, IMSA doesn't even exist. Doesn't sound as much fun like that does it?

Can't we just enjoy it all without this constant ****ing contest? Both series are awesome.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MrBloodmuffins

I heard repeatedly that the Cadillac DPi was designed first with Dallara and they put in a few changes to make the "generic" bodywork different. That would explain both why the DPi VR has been so successful and why the Dallara P2 has been "lacking in downforce".

The Dallara P2 car is running fine in its regular kit. It's the low downforce kit that was all over the place. Ligier was the same too.

[chernaudi]

And as mentioned, DPI already had GM, Mazda, and HPD to varying degrees in the period of 2014-16. GM had the Corvette DP, Mazda had diesel powered and later AER powered Lolas, and HPD was an engine supplier to MSR and ESM (though in '14 ESM raced the Courage derived ARX-03).

So in reality, Chevrolet got replaced by Cadillac (still under the GM umbrella), ESM got an engine supply deal with Nissan, Mazda developed a new car, and HPD took a hiatus until now. So aside from new cars built to new rules, not a ton has changed.

[MrBloodmuffins]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The Dallara P2 car is running fine in its regular kit. It's the low downforce kit that was all over the place. Ligier was the same too.

The low downforce kit problem was not one shared by the DPi VR.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why does everything need to be a "My train set is better than your train set" contest? Why can't we just enjoy what we have? Could also point out that without ACO classes, IMSA has just GTD. And if you take away SRO classes, IMSA has some businessmen looking at race tracks talking about how nice it'd be to have some cars on them. So without the ACOs game, IMSA doesn't even exist. Doesn't sound as much fun like that does it?

Can't we just enjoy it all without this constant ****ing contest? Both series are awesome.

As pointed out here, if not for IMSA borrowing from other series' concepts, we might not have an IMSA today. DPI was based off of IMSA take on the ACO's technical regulations for LMP2 (which shares chassis regs with LMP1), GTLM is IMSA's copy of GTE Pro, and GTD is based off the FIA's/SRO's GT3 concept.

Would it be nice for IMSA to just go and have their own GTP and GT classes? Yes, but especially for GTs, they would have to borrow from the ACO or SRO concepts. GTD is based around it being a customer car program, and GT3 is intended to be primarily that. GTE is based around factory GTs, so we have GTLM.

And even with the prototypes, it only makes sense to base that, even if only broadly, off ACO regs, as I don't see too many North American based companies that can or would make carbon fiber tubs. Unless Dallara builds their DPI/LMP2 tubs in Indianapolis (which I doubt), we only have Riley and Multimatic, and they joined forces for the Mazda DPI/Riley Mk30. The Mazda has done decently now that the car has half decent reliability (though Speedsource still sucks compared to the RX-8 days), but the stock Mk30 is crap, pure and simple.

ALMS and GA went bye bye after 2013, and the mess of a combined LMP2/DP class is also gone now. Time to let go of the past here, though I'm not necessarily one to talk (cough, I like LMP900 and first generation LMP1 better than current LMP1, cough).

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MrBloodmuffins

The low downforce kit problem was not one shared by the DPi VR.

Because it doesn't exist in the DPi VR? The Dallara low downforce kit isn't just knocking some wings and gurneys off.

The standard issue Dallara is not having any issues. It's run very competitively in ELMS. The biggest problem it's had is the teams that are running it are very new to the game compared with the likes of DragonSpeed running ORECAs. But in terms of performance, the Dallara has been right up there with the ORECA and Ligier in ELMS, despite the lack of experience with the teams.

[MrBloodmuffins]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The Dallara low downforce kit isn't just knocking some wings and gurneys off.

Maybe it should have. If that was the limit of the changes to the Cadillac's low downforce package for Daytona, it did good things for their performance, especially in preseason testing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MrBloodmuffins

Maybe it should have. If that was the limit of the changes to the Cadillac's low downforce package for Daytona, it did good things for their performance, especially in preseason testing.

No. They tried modified versions of the regular downforce kit at Le Mans with flattened wings and gurneys and dive planes removed, and the car wasn't any better. In low downforce trim, the ORECA is just miles ahead of the competition. Which is what everyone expected as it's had by far the most running, and developed on a known base. But in high downforce, the Dallara is just as capable as the others and has been fighting for wins. The car has a good solid base that can win races. A single aero kit wasn't as good as the ORECA. You can copy and paste that sentence when talking about Ligier too.

I'm not entirely sure IMSA even allows multiple aero packages. It'd also be pointless spending a couple of million throwing it into a wind tunnel to develop them because it's a BoP class, so it'd just get slowed down. The result would be a car that's held back on the straights and doesn't have any downforce in the corners. That's not going to work out for anyone.

I'm sure Cadillac were involved in the development. But it's a bit insulting and silly to suggest that somehow the car wouldn't be any good otherwise (when it actually is), especially given the history of Dallara being successful in...every other series they've ever entered.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why does everything need to be a "My train set is better than your train set" contest? Why can't we just enjoy what we have? Could also point out that without ACO classes, IMSA has just GTD. And if you take away SRO classes, IMSA has some businessmen looking at race tracks talking about how nice it'd be to have some cars on them. So without the ACOs game, IMSA doesn't even exist. Doesn't sound as much fun like that does it?

Can't we just enjoy it all without this constant ****ing contest? Both series are awesome.

Hey, IMSA would exist. It would just be a collection of PCs running around and us ****ing and moaning about driver quality. Yes, I know it's an old ACO chassis but in the post 'front-line' racing PC spec it's an IMSA special. And wouldn't that be a fun race. Or for some multi-class variety the one year Porsche 911 GT America.

[MrBloodmuffins]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

.

I'm sure Cadillac were involved in the development. But it's a bit insulting and silly to suggest that somehow the car wouldn't be any good otherwise (when it actually is), especially given the history of Dallara being successful in...every other series they've ever entered.

I have not claimed that Cadillac made the best car. I am saying Dallara made the best car and called it a Cadillac.

[Maelochs]

Two cars. Good news. Now I guess I have to go to the Rolex.

[JHamilton]

Michael Shank looking for a program for 2018: http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/14221...n-for-business

I feel like this is a niche that Nissan could take advantage of if they chose to. Hopefully, ESM's results this year are enough to encourage them to be more involved.

[Maelochs]

By the way ... ALMS ran ACO classes .... then it ran modified ACO classes. Grand-Am’s Rolex series ran some ancient crap.

Eventually people figured out hat with a limited market, the more similarity the better. it doesn’t take a brain scientist to figure out that if you have three dozen sports car customers, you will make more money if you can sell them the same car rather than designing, building testing and then trying to sell the 24 different cars.

Commercial realities suggest that having more series run similar classes makes sense. and now people want to b$$##$ about it?

Yeah, I am all for more teams and series going broke.

ACO might be messing up their top class ... but I seem to remember having basically only two teams since what, 2008? Peugeot versus Audi seemed to keep us all entertained. Maybe the politics is easier with fewer teams.

All I know is .... it all happens no matter what I think. If I want to be angry or be happy, the same cars will be on the grid—or won’t.

I do expect a pair of quick Penskes all though next season. AXR and WETR will have to sharpen up a good deal because with a Penske program on site no one will be gifting other teams wins.

And Honda’s 3.5 is a race-winning endurance engine. it seems to have enough low-end torque and top-end power to keep up with the competition.

Also, I can’t imagine Penske will be hiring to many second-rate drivers, rent-a-riders, or aging amateurs.

IMSA is Not racing ACO, maybe some folks didn’t get that memo.

The press release said Two Penske Acura DPis will be racing in IMSA next season.

Maybe if I worked real hard I could find a downside ... but I am actually at work so I guess I will leave that you very capable people.

[Damian Baldi]

It is great that IMSA shares regulations with ACO, this allow teams to cross the atlantic from Europe to make those rare car/drivers combinations we see at Daytona and Sebring, that I personally really enjoy.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I'm just disappointed that Oreca, Penske, and Honda are all pushing rumors that have no basis in reality. I mean, those guys are clearly confirming rumors that they had earlier denied. Clearly the HNA DPi will never happen.

As for the motor, I'm assuming it will be pretty closely related to the one that did this last year in 3.5L form

Touche, and you're on the money. It's the good old HR35TT from 2016 with Acura engine covers as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by TF110

So it is an Acura. Cool they keep with the recent American prototype history and badge it as such. The new Acura mesh grille will look a lot cleaner (if they use it) than Honda's on an lmp imo. Can't wait to see it. Hopefully it's as good as the Caddy and looks as good as the Mazda (aside the huge windscreen )

Knowing Honda, they'll take the Nissan route with the branding . But really, where would the grille go on the nose of the 07, there's not much to work with there.

PS Now I can't unsee the bubble top on the Mazda, thanks a lot.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Can't we just enjoy it all without this constant ****ing contest? Both series are awesome.

Welcome to the internet. I assume this is your first visit?
___

I just want to remind everyone that the Courage LC7X series evolved into the Oreca 01, which formed the basis for the 03, which Oreca redeveloped into the closed top 05, and now into the 07 (returning to the low nose of the 03).

The Courage LC7X also became the ARX-01 series then the ARX-03 series. And that's not even mentioning that the FLM09 is also derived from the thing.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Yes, I know it's an old ACO chassis but in the post 'front-line' racing PC spec it's an IMSA special.

PC is the least IMSA class of all. The cars are named "FLM09" because they were created for the 2009 Formula Le Mans championship, an ACO spec support series.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage

I just want to remind everyone that the Courage LC7X series evolved into the Oreca 01, which formed the basis for the 03, which Oreca redeveloped into the closed top 05, and now into the 07 (returning to the low nose of the 03).

The Courage LC7X also became the ARX-01 series then the ARX-03 series. And that's not even mentioning that the FLM09 is also derived from the thing.

And now the circle is complete!

[AoB Special Stage]

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ac...ng-this-month/

tl;dr Acura first shakedown at Paul Ricard this month, new crank and fuel system from the '16 engine. No drivers signed yet.