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Old 14 Nov 2013, 22:16 (Ref:3331489)   #2551
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Originally Posted by nkoske View Post
Not sure I see the innovation of the Delta-Wing.

  • Lighter cars needs less energy to go the same speed. Not innovative, Porsche has done that forever, not to mention others. Basic high school level physics.
  • Giant tunnels are more efficient than wings. Not innovative Again has been happening for some time.
  • Torque vectoring. Not innovative, happened in F1 a long time ago and banned.
  • The delta wing shape (narrow front track). Probably to only innovative thing, but I think at this point had to be proven not as good as a wide track. The delta wing has a greater power to weight than an LMP1 yet laps slower than a LMP2, which means it has to be losing it in the turns. Maybe someone has sector data that can disprove this, but the data I've seen seems to support it.
Have I missed anything?
Bowlby himself admitted there was nothing new about the component ideas incorporated in the Deltawing. It was all about uniting them in a way that would make an efficient vehicle that could run similar lap times to existing classified protoypes using approximately half the resources. The innovation is in the way those ideas are combined and if you care to do the research you will realize there is a lot more than power to weight involved. I doubt anyone has built any form of racing vehicle that hasn't required considerable trial and error to get it working properly so why should the Deltawing be any different? There is a great deal of evidence that already establishes the concept was well on the way to fulfilling its potential but the history of the car has now been so beset with changes including personnel, tyres and design that the current version of it is struggling to resurrect the performance it was showing at last year's Petit Le Mans. If Bowlby and Nissan had continued development of the original car throughout this year it seems certain that it would have been doing what it said on the box in the first place. After all it is only an experiment in car design that either works or doesn't. It conforms to the requirements the ACO stipulated for Garage 56. If it conformed to the rulebook it wouldn't have been running in Garage 56. Quite why it polarizes us all in the way it does perhaps is one aspect of it that Bowlby didn't expect when he first designed it.
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Old 14 Nov 2013, 22:33 (Ref:3331498)   #2552
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Originally Posted by optica View Post
Bowlby himself admitted there was nothing new about the component ideas incorporated in the Deltawing. It was all about uniting them in a way that would make an efficient vehicle...
That is why I wonder if the coupe version throws this delicate equation out of balance? Everything seemed to be working and then a roof was added. It is too early to cast judgement on success or failure but just wondering.
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Old 15 Nov 2013, 02:05 (Ref:3331579)   #2553
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
He had no way of knowing Nissan would like his plan and decide to build a Garage 56 entry ... and what happens after Le Mans 2014? The ZEOD can't race in any existing series.
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nissan's plan looks like is test in G56 & ACO will open a door for them in P1, just like Deltawing Racing Car in ALMS.
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Old 15 Nov 2013, 02:11 (Ref:3331580)   #2554
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Originally Posted by nkoske View Post
Not sure I see the innovation of the Delta-Wing.

  • Lighter cars needs less energy to go the same speed. Not innovative, Porsche has done that forever, not to mention others. Basic high school level physics.

Teslar Roadster did 0-100 faster then 2007 GTR, but y it can't get 300km/h but GTR did? because u need lots of power to push the air out event how light u are.U can't just take a light car to win the heavy monster machine because u have no power to fright drag with tradition shape.

Deltawing can provide low drag to let low power light car go high speed
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Old 15 Nov 2013, 21:36 (Ref:3331921)   #2555
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Originally Posted by nkoske View Post
Not sure I see the innovation of the Delta-Wing.

  • The delta wing shape (narrow front track). Probably to only innovative thing, but I think at this point had to be proven not as good as a wide track. The delta wing has a greater power to weight than an LMP1 yet laps slower than a LMP2, which means it has to be losing it in the turns. Maybe someone has sector data that can disprove this, but the data I've seen seems to support it.
Have I missed anything?
Who has made a car that is this light and can go this fast and can do it for more than 8 hours?

The basic concept to get the weight down was to throw away more than 1/4 of the car.

I would love to see a very fuel-limited experimental class where somebody could show up with a rectangular car to try to beat the DW. Maybe they would. There SHOULD be a war of ideas about how to go fast with fewer resources. It's a battle that could provide some very useful information.
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 10:02 (Ref:3332088)   #2556
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Im sure lots of teams could make a sub 675kg car (they did a decade ago) and go just as fast with a small light engine.
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 12:44 (Ref:3332114)   #2557
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Who has made a car that is this light and can go this fast and can do it for more than 8 hours?
Has the Deltawing lasted 8 hours yet?!

In seriousness though, if we add the performance of a Stohr DSR car (~200bhp, 450kg incl driver) to my VIR chart, you can see that it is only slightly slower than the Deltawing but uses only 57% of the Deltawing's power (and hence, roughly, 57% of the fuel consumption). In terms of fuel used to lap time it massively out-performs the Deltawing. Giving it an ACO crash-tested tub would add some weight, but then giving it the same power as the Deltawing would make it VERY VERY quick indeed....

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Old 16 Nov 2013, 12:59 (Ref:3332119)   #2558
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Originally Posted by Machin View Post
Has the Deltawing lasted 8 hours yet?!

In seriousness though, if we add the performance of a Stohr DSR car (~200bhp, 450kg incl driver) to my VIR chart, you can see that it is only slightly slower than the Deltawing but uses only 57% of the Deltawing's power (and hence, roughly, 57% of the fuel consumption). In terms of fuel used to lap time it massively out-performs the Deltawing. Giving it an ACO crash-tested tub would add some weight, but then giving it the same power as the Deltawing would make it VERY VERY quick indeed....

And hence my whole point about the fallacy of the DW concept...it only proves ONE thing: open aero regulations allow for efficient designs. Other than that, the (effectively) three wheel concept is tying one hand behind your back for no reason.

Give the Stohr the development budget of the DW and you'll be miles ahead.

BTW, the Tucker DSR was predicted (lap sim) to lap Road Atlanta in 1:14-1:15 range, though the engineer conceded it might even go better...
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 13:19 (Ref:3332123)   #2559
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^^^ Isn't it the West DSR? Stohr makes DSR's but nothing like that and I think they make F1000's for SCCA club racing.

http://www.westracecars.com/

You also see "West" stickers on Level 5's P2 cars.
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 14:30 (Ref:3332142)   #2560
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I believe Tucker bought West racing ... and a West chassis was the basis for his multi-million-dollar class-killing DSR.

That car probably did have the development budget of the DWing.
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 15:29 (Ref:3332153)   #2561
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Wow, thanks for the heads up... I think I've found my new favourite car!







LMPC performance on literally half the power: The Deltawing couldn't match that WX10 lap time, even with >60% more power/fuel per lap!
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 21:15 (Ref:3332304)   #2562
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Originally Posted by Machin View Post
Has the Deltawing lasted 8 hours yet?!

In seriousness though, if we add the performance of a Stohr DSR car (~200bhp, 450kg incl driver) to my VIR chart, you can see that it is only slightly slower than the Deltawing but uses only 57% of the Deltawing's power (and hence, roughly, 57% of the fuel consumption). In terms of fuel used to lap time it massively out-performs the Deltawing. Giving it an ACO crash-tested tub would add some weight, but then giving it the same power as the Deltawing would make it VERY VERY quick indeed....

And it will do that for 24 hours?

The DW has lasted more than 8 hours at Petit Le Mans. We never got to find out how long it would last mechanically at Le Mans. The engine on the Le Mans car was no more aggressively tuned than a typical ricemobile, so having the engine finish 24H shouldn't have been a problem, but we never got to find out.

I don't think these motorcycle-based engines could last 24H, but in any case, what I would really like to see is a class where cars like that and the DW can play with each other and we can see what works.
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 21:18 (Ref:3332306)   #2563
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And hence my whole point about the fallacy of the DW concept...it only proves ONE thing: open aero regulations allow for efficient designs. Other than that, the (effectively) three wheel concept is tying one hand behind your back for no reason.

Give the Stohr the development budget of the DW and you'll be miles ahead.

BTW, the Tucker DSR was predicted (lap sim) to lap Road Atlanta in 1:14-1:15 range, though the engineer conceded it might even go better...
So why don't we have class where these sorts of ideas can battle it out?

In F1 the rules are stuck in the stone age to protect the status quo. Is that also the reason sportscar rules require such inefficient designs?

Let the designers do their thing! When the cars get too fast for safety, cut the fuel allocation back. Other than that, 'Go to it, boys!'
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Old 16 Nov 2013, 22:08 (Ref:3332326)   #2564
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Agreed. The last thing a championship should do is let one car run to "unlimited" rules.
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Old 17 Nov 2013, 22:58 (Ref:3332772)   #2565
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I don't think these motorcycle-based engines could last 24H,
FYI: there is actually a Le Mans 24 hour race for motorcycles (superbikes), held on the Bugatti circuit every year...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enduran...d_Championship
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Old 22 Nov 2013, 01:04 (Ref:3335009)   #2566
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FYI: there is actually a Le Mans 24 hour race for motorcycles (superbikes), held on the Bugatti circuit every year...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enduran...d_Championship
A motorcycle engine pushing a car is a different deal from pushing a bike.
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Old 22 Nov 2013, 17:07 (Ref:3335263)   #2567
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A motorcycle engine pushing a car is a different deal from pushing a bike.
A CBR 1100cc engined Caterham won its class at the Nurburgring 24 hours race in 2000 (before Caterhams were stopped from being allowed to compete at the event), so there is definitely a precedent for superbike-engined cars working just fine over 24 hours.....
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Old 22 Nov 2013, 21:50 (Ref:3335378)   #2568
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A CBR 1100cc engined Caterham won its class at the Nurburgring 24 hours race in 2000 (before Caterhams were stopped from being allowed to compete at the event), so there is definitely a precedent for superbike-engined cars working just fine over 24 hours.....
Hopefully we can see more of this in the future, in a high-efficiency, technically open class.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 15:38 (Ref:3339316)   #2569
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Automotive News
December 2, 2013 - 12:01 am ET Nissan says the idea for the BladeGlider, the wedge-shaped concept that drew crowds at the Tokyo Motor Show last week, came out of the clear blue sky.
The car's inspirations, Nissan says, are "the soaring, silent, panoramic freedom of a glider and the triangular shape of a high-performance 'swept wing' aircraft."
One of Nissan's former racing partners begs to differ.
Delta Wing Project 56, a company backed by racing tycoon and pharmaceuticals entrepreneur Don Panoz, is suing the Japanese automaker, arguing that the BladeGlider is a knockoff of its similarly wedge-shaped DeltaWing race car, which debuted at the 24 Hours of Le Mans race in 2012 with a Nissan engine under the hood.
The civil suit that Panoz's lawyers filed Nov. 22 in Superior Court in Jackson County, Ga., against Nissan and one of the BladeGlider's project team members, Ben Bowlby, seeks a cease-and-desist order that would prevent the company from displaying, racing or selling cars with such a design. Also named in the suit is Darren Cox, director of Nissan's global motorsports program.
Bowlby was behind Panoz's DeltaWing, which Nissan helped finance. He was hired by Nissan to become director of motorsport innovation and went on to design Nissan's ZEOD RC electric racer, which shares the DeltaWing's narrow, arrow-shaped footprint. Both racers feature a wider wheel track in the rear than in the front.
Nissan hopes to commercialize the radical design idea, assuring audiences that the similarly shaped BladeGlider will become a production car.
Panoz says he spent tens of millions of dollars to prove that the DeltaWing worked. On those grounds, the 78-year-old millionaire claims intellectual property rights to its unusual shape, which he wants to license to automakers.
Panoz said in an interview last month that he has built two concepts of production cars and is trying to license those exotic designs to automakers as a way to boost fuel economy. He said he worries that if Nissan is able to race and sell its wedge-shaped cars, the DeltaWing's shape essentially will enter the public domain of automotive design.
"Everybody else in the market would be open to that kind of design," he said. "And what do automobile companies do? They see something that's taking off and they want to mimic it, don't they?"
The lawsuit adds Panoz, best known in the auto industry for bankrolling the limited-run Panoz Esperante sports car, to a long line of automotive mavericks from Carroll Shelby to Elon Musk who have fought in court for the rights to their designs. A spokesman for Nissan North America in Nashville declined to comment on the lawsuit.
There is no denying the resemblance between the DeltaWing and the BladeGlider.


Striking resemblance


There is no denying the resemblance between the DeltaWing and the BladeGlider.
Both have four wheels like a standard car. Both have narrow front ends. The BladeGlider's two front tires are just 4 inches wide and 2 feet apart, giving the car a slim snout that flares to a normal width toward the rear of the car.
The unconventional design has proven worthy on the racetrack. Though the DeltaWing has yet to win a race, it finished fifth out of 42 cars last year at the Petit Le Mans outside Atlanta, held at a track Panoz used to own. It did so with a four-cylinder, 300-hp engine; the fourth-place finisher had a 450-hp V-8.
"In the very beginning with this car, because it was so new and such a departure from what race cars were, with their big front wheels and wide front ends, a lot of experts said, 'The car won't work. It will fly. It won't corner,'" Panoz said. "The car does work. It doesn't fly, and it does corner."
It so thoroughly challenged the conventional wisdom of car racing that Automobile magazine, which had canceled its Racing Car of the Year Award for seven years for what it called stifling race regulations and a lack of technological innovation, resurrected the award in January for the DeltaWing.
"Yes, the DeltaWing looks weird, and, yes, it may render an entire generation of racing cars obsolete," the magazine wrote at the time. "But the genie is out of the bottle, and we intend to embrace it."
"Everybody else in the market would be open to that kind of design. And what do automobile companies do? They see something that's taking off and they want to mimic it, don't they?" - Don Panoz


Nissan eyes Le Mans in '14


The DeltaWing lawsuit, which accuses Bowlby of misappropriating confidential information, is the culmination of a months-long confrontation with Nissan, which pulled its sponsorship of the DeltaWing vehicle this year. Nissan later revealed plans to put its own wedge-shaped car on the starting line at 24 Hours of Le Mans in 2014.
Bowlby had drawn up plans for the DeltaWing in 2009 while employed by race car owner Chip Ganassi, according to the lawsuit. In 2011, Bowlby started working with Panoz, who licensed the design and paid to build it for the following year's Le Mans race.
They soon lined up Nissan as a key sponsor. As part of the agreement, Nissan offered money and expertise, and provided the engine used for the DeltaWing's first two races, the suit says.
Soon after the car's first race in October 2012, Bowlby parted ways with Panoz and signed on with Nissan. In June 2013, at 24 Hours of Le Mans, the automaker unveiled the wedge-shaped ZEOD RC and announced plans to field it at Le Mans in 2014.
At a Nov. 19 Nissan reception in Yokohama, Japan, Nissan officials showed the ZEOD and BladeGlider concept sitting side by side. Nissan presented the BladeGlider as a possible production car, inspired by the ZEOD.
"People have asked how a car of that shape can handle around corners," Bowlby told Automotive News, referring to the BladeGlider. He gestured at the ZEOD RC. "We have proof right here that it works fine."
Nissan describes the BladeGlider, with its lightweight, aerodynamic design, as an early prototype for a new breed of sports car that defies a century's worth of automotive design and engineering conventions. Andy Palmer, the automaker's global product planning chief, said last month that the car is more than a design exercise.
"This will be a production car," he said.
MPG advantage


Panoz, who made his fortune in pharmaceuticals as a pioneer of the nicotine patch, is not new to building cars. In the 1990s, his company Panoz Auto Development started selling a boutique sports car called the Panoz Roadster at some U.S. Ford dealerships.
The company went on to market the Esperante, another two-seat convertible, from 1999 until 2007, with Panoz's son, Danny, taking the lead. Now the elder Panoz has started a new company called Delta Wing Technologies and hired as its president Al Speyer, the longtime executive director of motorsports at Bridgestone/Firestone Inc.
Panoz's company has spent $20 million on two concept cars falling on opposite ends of the cost spectrum. One is a two-seat roadster that would compete with exotic cars from brands such as Ferrari; the other is a four-seat family sedan.
Meanwhile, Panoz is trying to license the unorthodox wedge design to major automakers, saying its aerodynamic profile and reduced weight offer vastly improved fuel economy.
The wedge design may have one key advantage: Under new federal fuel economy standards, targets are determined largely by the vehicle's wheelbase, not on its curb weight or passenger capacity. Because of their long wheelbases, cars designed like the DeltaWing qualify for lower mpg targets, but they are much lighter and more aerodynamic than conventional cars with comparable wheelbases.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 15:48 (Ref:3339320)   #2570
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Marshall Pruett has a good article on the lawsuit here:

http://www.racer.com/panoz-led-delta...rticle/323046/

Something that stands out to me: there were several charges against Bowlby and Nissan that are based on oral agreements.... so shame on DW and DWP56 for not getting signed contracts!

But I will say the DW group have a good case concerning many of the charges.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 15:51 (Ref:3339322)   #2571
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Wouldn't mind seeing a restraining order on both concepts due to the irreparable damage to my eyes, though!
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 16:48 (Ref:3339340)   #2572
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I was wondering how long it would be, before litigation reared its ugly head.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 22:03 (Ref:3339497)   #2573
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Funny how long the "this is an open source design" bit lasted.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 23:49 (Ref:3339537)   #2574
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http://www.gran-turismo.com/local/jp...arlist_en.html

Deltawing is back to GT6...... with TWICE!!!
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DeltaWing 2013 DeltaWing
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 23:59 (Ref:3339541)   #2575
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Funny how long the "this is an open source design" bit lasted.
Indeed. They should do the honourable thing and race both cars head to head and may the best D-Wing win.
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