[LM24] Le Mans trap speeds needed

[MulsanneMike]

This information will be in the 1991 and 1992 ACO annual. I'm looking for the trap speeds posted for the:

1991: Jaguar XJR-14, car was withdrawn for the race but ran a 3:31.912 and would have been on pole. Hopefully they have a speed listed for it from practice/qualifying.

1992: Mazda MXR-01, two -01s were entered, interested in speeds for both.

Often times the annuals list the practice and race speeds, if availabel I'm interested in both numbers for all the cars above.

[Fab]

If no one gives it this morning, I'll check at noon...

[Fab]

Here are your answers Mike :
- Jaguar XJR 14 (best lap time 3:31,912) : 319 km/h
- Mazda MXR-01 : Herbert/Gachot/Weidler : 324 km/h, Sala/Yorino/Terada : 313 km/h

[Tim Northcutt]

Speaking of Trap Speeds...did the ACO release Trap Sppeds for 2003????

I haven't seen anything on it....but would LOVE to know....

[Fab]

Let's wait for the annual... I've got nothing yet, but didn't check the ACO stats we received on monday...

[Thumper]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Speaking of Trap Speeds...did the ACO release Trap Sppeds for 2003???? I haven't seen anything on it....but would LOVE to know....

There's a thread you could follow about this topic on PistonHeads, but the best I could come up with there, and here, is the following:

The only sheet published so far (to date) by the ACO is entitled "Best Speed Taking - Qualifying Practice 1" and is dated/timed 12th June 2003 00:11. They are in car order, not speed. The following is exactly as given on the sheet, and does not say where these figures were collected . . .

4 Riley & Scott 279.07 kph
5 Audi Sport Japan 280.52
6 Champion Racing 279.07
7 Team Bentley 281.98
8 Team Bentley 284.96
9 Kondo Racing 282.72
10 Audi Sport UK 279.07
11 JML Team Panoz 280.52
12 JML Team Panoz 283.46
13 Courage Competition 282.72
14 Team Nasamax 267.33
15 Racing for Holland 286.47
16 Racing for Holland 284.96
17 Pescarolo Sport 274.11
18 Pescarolo Sport 274.81
19 Durango 278.35
20 Lister Racing 272.73
21 Edouard Sezionale 261.50
23 Team Bucknum Racing 258.73
24 Welter Racing 256.53
25 Gerard Welter 226.89
26 RN Motorsport 272.73
27 Intersport Racing 266.01
29 Noel Del Bello 264.06
31 Courage Competition 256.53
50 Corvette Racing 260.87
53 Corvette Racing 257.14
61 Carsport America 245.45
64 Graham Nash Motorsport 254.72
66 Konrad Motorsport 258.37
68 Scorp Motorsport 250.58
70 JMB Racing 235.81
72 Luc Alphand Racing 264.06
75 Thierry Perrier 241.07
77 Team Taisan 242.70
78 PK Sport 238.95
80 Veloqx Prodrive 267.33
81 Kevin Buckler 244.90
83 Seikel Motorsport 240.00
84 T2M Motorsport 232.26
85 Team Orange Spyker 230.77
86 Labre Competition 252.93
87 Orbit Racing 246.01
88 Veloqx Prodrive 267.33
91 DeWalt Racesports TVR 237.36
92 DeWalt Racesports TVR 237.89
93 Alex Job Racing 247.14
94 Risi Competizione 238.41
95 Risi Competizione 233.77
99 XL Racing 236.32

Apologies if there are any typos. As you can see, not hugely helpful without reference to where the figures were taken. The fastest here is Jan Lammers in the Dome with a best of 286.47 kph, or about 178 mph. Your guess is as good as mine as to where this might have been "trapped".

Best I can do, I'm afraid.

[Adam43]

What difference is there between the two cars?
and what lap time did the Mazda do? Practice or the race?

1992 is the only race I have missed in the last 14 years!

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
What difference is there between the two cars?
and what lap time did the Mazda do? Practice or the race?

The only difference I can think of between the Jaguar of 1991 and the Mazda of 1992 was that the Mazda had a Judd engine.

Perhaps one also had the low-downforce mini rear wing. I remember seeing the #6 Mazda running in that configuration during the race, and pictures of the #5 Mazda using it in practice. Did the Jaguars run that wing in 1991?

[Adam43]

The Jaguar didn't try too hard to find a decent set-up. It was never going to be a race car for them. So perhaps the rear wind and drag was not ideal. I am just guessing though!

[Wally (Evo.1)]

I've always wondered how the XJR-14 would have done had TWR raced it in 1991. As the Mazda (albeit with a Judd engine instead of the Ford HB), they harried the Peugeots and Toyotas and ended up a credible fourth. Since the Peugeot Evos in 1992 were much faster, one could assume the XJR-14 would have had the field covered in 1991.

[Tim Northcutt]

On the 2003 trap speeds....

Although we can't tell much from these figures since we don't know where they were gotten on the course, we can at least assume that they were recorded at the same place on the circuit...

Boy...does Pescarolo ever need to find a different power source!!!!!!

Way off the pace.......

I also found it interesting that there were quite a few cars all grouped together behind the RfH Domes and the Bentleys....Panoz, Courage, the four Audis, Kondo, and R&S all very close together....

On a thread about 6 weeks ago, someone quoted Jim Matthews as saying that they were about the same speed on the straights as the Audis at LM and a number or readers doubted it....those numbers seem pretty close to me...in fact, identical to the Champion and the Audi UK speed, and less than a km. behind Team Goh...

I know that this is just one snippet of info so I'm not reading a lot into these results, but at least it makes an interesting item for discussion or comparison..


But I would still be interested finding out more....

[MulsanneMike]

Fab, thanks!

Adam: main difference between -14 and Mazda MXR-01 (other than the powerplant) was that one can consider the Mazda a more "productionized" XJR-14. Some items were simplified to keep costs down. Interestingly, the Mazda's time throughout the season were essentially right on the XJR-14s times. So the Judd-badged Mazda wasn't producing any more power and chassis development stopped once the '91 season was over (even for the IMSA TWR group). The Peugeot 905 and Toyota TS010 continued on their development cycle and by '92 were regularly turning times 6 seconds quicker (for the pole qaulifier) than the XJR-14 managed the year before.

Wally: The mini wing that the #6 Mazda entry used was something they came up with. Basically it was the standard bi-plane with the top element removed and the endplate cut down to match the bottom element closer. Looking at the trap speed they clearly gained nothing from it there (313 kph for it vs. 324 kph for #5) and their lap time was some 4 seconds off the #5 car. I'd be interested in the thought behind its removal. Perhaps it was hoped to shave some drag and therefore go longer on a tank of fuel?

[billnchristy]

Unfortunately the R&S and many of the other decently fast cars dont have quite the same handling as the Audi, I hope there is a big Prototype race at Monza next year, there could be some suprises there as the only real turns are the chicanes and parabolica...lesmos isnt too bad but the second part pinches you a bit (all gleaned from racing games and watching F1, but hey, its something)

[Adam43]

Cheers Mike. I always considered it just a cheap way for Mazda to stay involved after there '91 Le Mans win. It also appeared to me that teh development of the 14 stopped well before the end of '91 anyway. Well, at least it didn't continue at the pace of the 905.

In the wet in '92 teh Mazda did lead for quite a bit IIRC.

[MulsanneMike]

Adam,

I'm finding that very interesting (the MXR leading in the wet at Le Mans '92). I've recently been in touch with one of those involved with the design and development of the XJR-14. He's sent me some aero. figures and frankly I'm trying to make sense of them as they aren't even close to the level I thought they would be. He also worked on the TS010 and was able to confirm some L/Ds which blow the XJR-14 out of the water (and are more along the lines of what I would expect from a prototype of the era). Based on that, and given that both the XJR-14 and TS010 carried similar drag levels (given power output and top speed), it would appear to me that in LM configuration, the TS010 carried much more downforce for similar drag levels.

[Sean Crockett]

Must say I'm really impresed with Prodrive and their ability to build two 550's to such close tolerances that they posted exactly the same trap speeds!!

[Adam43]

Mike, that is interesting. DO you think that the main problem is that the 14 was never a Le Mans car, if you see what I mean. Although if IIRC it did do well at Monza in '91, which is the most similar circuit that it competitively raced on.

I have conflicting thoughts on this. 1991 was still early days for the 3.5l rules and designer could still have been finding their feet. Perhaps in some ways it isn't surprising that the TS010 gained so much. Progress could be quite quick at the beginning. Having said that for at least the early part of '91 the XJR14 was the class of the field.

The rear wing is quite interesting. From what I remember the rear wing of the 14 set the standard. The 905 adopting a similar design half way through '91 IIRC. And it carries the low body work philosophy to (presumably) get the rear wing working best that we see continued through to today's cars.

The modifications to the Mazda rear wing do sound intriguing. A traditional Le Mans thing to try - even with the chicanes. you could be onto something with respect of fuel economy.

[Garrett]

With someone talking about the Prodrive Ferrari's, I was impressed with them having a higher top speed at LM2002 on the straight than most LMP's. I think that they were running 204mph-206mph, and at one time I think it was said on Speed TV during their live broadcast that they had run a faster top speed than 2 of the 3 Audi R8's, which it was said that the Audi's were going around 203mph. What an achievement for te 550's!!!!!!!

[MulsanneMike]

Adam,

Yes the -14 never was optimised to Le Mans, but nonetheless, even in sprint-low-drag configuration, it was generating less downforce for more drag than the TS010! So I can't for the life of me figure out how the MXR-01 led in the rain at Le Mans '92 as the car's (XJR-14) development stopped when the '91 season ended.

[MulsanneMike]

Additionally, if anyone has the 1993 speeds for the Peugeot 905 and Toyota TS010...

[Fab]

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
Fab, thanks!

My pleasure !

I use to come to late each time someone needs informations... at last, I was not completely hopeless on that one !

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
I can't for the life of me figure out how the MXR-01 led in the rain at Le Mans '92 as the car's (XJR-14) development stopped when the '91 season ended.

I can. Volker Weidler.

The guy drove his nuts off in those opening laps, when the Peugeot drivers were being very careful indeed. In fact, he upset Derek Warwick with his press-on style in those opening laps.

[Aysedasi]

Here is the moment that he took 2nd place.

http://www.aysedasi.btinternet.co.uk.../S1/92s103.jpg

If I remember rightly, he took the lead a lap later in the same place. For me, his driving in those opening laps made that race.

[Fab]

Crikey ! What a shot !

[dscwall]

As metioned before the aggressive driving of Volker Weidler, but also you should consider the Mazdas Michelin tyres, an agreement amongst some of the drivers not to push too hard in the early stages, though somebody forgot to tell Weidler, and a car that was effectively in sprint configuration compared to the Toyota and Peugeot.
Another great drive in the race was Frentzen in the Lola.