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Old 14 Jul 2010, 16:46 (Ref:2726650)   #1001
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Hehe, #1000th post, and I'm disappointed.

Anyone other than Dallara would be fine by me. Having the same manufacturer is not the future. This fails, they have gone for the safe, yet entirely boring option.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 16:54 (Ref:2726656)   #1002
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Originally Posted by dyewat808 View Post
Hehe, #1000th post, and I'm disappointed.

Anyone other than Dallara would be fine by me. Having the same manufacturer is not the future. This fails, they have gone for the safe, yet entirely boring option.
How did everyone miss what is going on? Lola, Swift, and anyone else can make the front and rear wings plus the body cover. It's what the Lola would have been.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:00 (Ref:2726659)   #1003
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:02 (Ref:2726661)   #1004
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Fingers crossed Dallara manage to put a good car together that produces good racing.
If it's a single chassis I'd like Lola to get it. Their chassis has multiple configurations and can be used in Indy Lights.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:06 (Ref:2726663)   #1005
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The more I hear the more I like, as it allows more variety to the current bland IRL grid, it won't ever get back to the good old days as in Champcar ut it's a step in the right direction.

My only concern with the open design lies with the Likes of Penske and Ganassi using their financial might to develop their own unique parts for each track leaving other teams miles behind.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:18 (Ref:2726667)   #1006
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Dallara only makes the tub, underfloor and rear wing. Everything else is made by anyone who chooses to make it.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:19 (Ref:2726668)   #1007
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The more I hear the more I like, as it allows more variety to the current bland IRL grid, it won't ever get back to the good old days as in Champcar ut it's a step in the right direction.

My only concern with the open design lies with the Likes of Penske and Ganassi using their financial might to develop their own unique parts for each track leaving other teams miles behind.
The body parts have to be approved by the IRL and I believe they can't top 70K.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:20 (Ref:2726670)   #1008
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Hopefully the nose sections will be less than 28' long on the various aero kits. I also like the clarity of having a chassis my Dallara. I feel sorry for whatever PR staff gets to manage the message of two different manufacturers. Plus you have to love the potential finger pointing of Swift saying the car would be so much better were it not for the dodgy chassis and vice versa. Why not just open it up to 3 to 4 mfg's? And I was starting to get interested in the series again.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:22 (Ref:2726671)   #1009
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As has been said before, Dalara will only supply the basic chassis for the car, theres nothing stopping Lola and Swift making their own customer bodykits is there?
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:25 (Ref:2726674)   #1010
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Hopefully the nose sections will be less than 28' long on the various aero kits. I also like the clarity of having a chassis my Dallara. I feel sorry for whatever PR staff gets to manage the message of two different manufacturers. Plus you have to love the potential finger pointing of Swift saying the car would be so much better were it not for the dodgy chassis and vice versa. Why not just open it up to 3 to 4 mfg's? And I was starting to get interested in the series again.
A) No such need, as the maker of the body kit will be the "chassis maker" That gets named. Example: Dario Franchitti drives a chassis with Lola bits, It would be "Dario Franchitti in the TCGR Lola-insert engine here"


B) The tub is the "IICS safety tub" so I'm guessing anyone who decides to build parts for it will get all the necessary engineering details along with it.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:32 (Ref:2726677)   #1011
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These kits include front & rear wings, sidepods, and engine covers. These kits will have to meet specs and be approved by the series. The price of these new chassis is 45% decrease in cost. A rolling Dallara chassis will now cost $349,000. The new aerokit by Dallara will be $45,000 up to $70,000 the 2nd year. Also the weight of the cars drops 185 lbs to 1,380 lbs minimum.

The cars will be manufactured here in Indiana.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:41 (Ref:2726680)   #1012
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By playing it safe the IICS has in fact taken a very big risk. They have alienated Lola, Swift et al in order to chase the big OEMs to produce engines and aero kits for the cars.

Its either going to be a huge success or a total disaster.

Whatever happens I definately want to go to Indy in 2012....just in case
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 17:42 (Ref:2726681)   #1013
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Originally Posted by dyewat808 View Post
Hehe, #1000th post, and I'm disappointed.

Anyone other than Dallara would be fine by me. Having the same manufacturer is not the future. This fails, they have gone for the safe, yet entirely boring option.
You missed half of the announcement...

This is the whole concept:

The base of the new car is a rolling chassis and advanced safety cell produced by Dallara. The rest of the car will be produced by different manufacturers who can build "aero kits".

Thus Swift, Lola, BAT, Dome, or any other manufacturer can build the aero parts of the body, subject to ICS approval, with a cap of $70,000 for those kits to be mounted to the Dallara roller chassis and safety cell.

This is a great plan...variety coupled with the safety cell being built by a manuafcturer that has been in the series for many years.

If others don't grasp that, they need to have Vanna White sell them a clue for $250
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 18:06 (Ref:2726688)   #1014
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By playing it safe the IICS has in fact taken a very big risk. They have alienated Lola, Swift et al in order to chase the big OEMs to produce engines and aero kits for the cars.

Its either going to be a huge success or a total disaster.

Whatever happens I definately want to go to Indy in 2012....just in case
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 18:09 (Ref:2726689)   #1015
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This is NO plan, exactly like the engine specs. This is an invitation to potential investors and suppliers, period.

Dallara roller: $349K
Dallara roller with body kit: $385K

Alternate body kit supplier requirements:

IRL approval
Safety testing
Fixed price
Production capability to supply all teams.

Now that's what Barnhart said. If the complete body kit is capped at $70K, that makes an alternate builder peanuts. And he has no guarantee that his R&D time will net him a single sale.

Same as the engines. If you invite them, it doesn't mean they will come. If they come, it doesn't mean they will be competitive.

And the old Dallaras are now worthless.

It's a defacto spec Dallara/ Honda series, which only changes if competitors chose to gamble on participation.

One car team: $385K for primary chasis and body kit, $385K for T car, $700K for Honda engine lease.
That's $1.477 Million before you buy a tire or hire a grunt. Or you go home.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 18:45 (Ref:2726708)   #1016
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claus, I don't know what you were listening to but props for having more imagination than the MORONIC panel.

This is $349K Dallara roller (with gearbox). Teams are not free to build suspensions.

It's $385k with the Dallara body kit fitted. IF other manufacturers want to design and produce body kits, at volumes to supply all teams as mandated, then you may see one or two alternative configurations.

Or not.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 18:53 (Ref:2726712)   #1017
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DF: that means AA will need $3.85 million in NEW investment for five chassis and five spares. And all of their old cars are worthless as of Oct 2011.

The engine budget will drop from $4.675M down to no lower that $3.5M for five leases.

There's your cost reduction. The only other real savings is in replacing a written off chassis, and a reduction in the spares budget.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:25 (Ref:2726724)   #1018
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claus, I don't know what you were listening to but props for having more imagination than the MORONIC panel.

This is $349K Dallara roller (with gearbox). Teams are not free to build suspensions.

It's $385k with the Dallara body kit fitted. IF other manufacturers want to design and produce body kits, at volumes to supply all teams as mandated, then you may see one or two alternative configurations.

Or not.
The way I understand it, teams can make or job out their own aero kits as well...Like Penske or Ganassi...provided they get IICS approval and can provide the panels to others whom would be interested.

At least that is what tracksideonline reported today.

I could see one or both of them at least considering it...especially if it could give them an advantage.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:27 (Ref:2726725)   #1019
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That is an interesting concept. Maybe it will allow some interesting technical freedom, but keep the costs down of the most expensive bit.

I hope it works, it may be suitable for Indycar and work well there.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:27 (Ref:2726727)   #1020
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I'm not too fond of the choice. First of all, the Lola was beautiful, and the Dallaras aren't. Anyone can build a body, pk, but how will they look? I don't care that much about having different bodies, but about having good-looking bodies. And how will they behave in race? Rules in F1 have brought to severe problems for overtaking. How will the IRL guarantee that that won't happen in IndyCar?
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:38 (Ref:2726732)   #1021
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I'm not too fond of the choice. First of all, the Lola was beautiful, and the Dallaras aren't. Anyone can build a body, pk, but how will they look? I don't care that much about having different bodies, but about having good-looking bodies. And how will they behave in race? Rules in F1 have brought to severe problems for overtaking. How will the IRL guarantee that that won't happen in IndyCar?
What's stopping Lola from creating those "beautiful" wings, sidepods, etc., and bolting them onto the IICS Safety Tub/roller chassis?

Face it, guys...NONE of the manufacturers could deliver complete cars at this kind of a price point unless they would have been the exclusive provider for the series...They even said so publicly...

This at least gives them a chance to participate via the aero kits, spares, etc., plus gives the series the opportunity to provide less expensive cars plus variety.

I think we'll see others build the aero kits besides Dallara.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:39 (Ref:2726733)   #1022
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Agreed...Boy, the Panoz DP01 really brought tons of fans to Champ Car, didn't it?

Now those chassis are merely hot tubs sitting on the back patios of those car owners.

This announcement is just one small piece of a bigger puzzle that needs to be solved.
Well Champcar's problems went beyond the DP01 and what it could solve. Once a few problems were sorted it was a pretty racy car. Champcar's destiny was set in Sept 2006 and not much could have changed it.

Same with indycar, I think to really set themselves apart they needed to go radical and I think there are too many problems now that this new car can overcome. The golden goose has been cooked.

The only hope for revenue and competition is to bring in another manufacturer. But honda has already made it clear they are bare boning it, so I don't know how that would sit with them. They are fence sitters anyways and I wouldn't count on them.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:43 (Ref:2726737)   #1023
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Well Champcar's problems went beyond the DP01 and what it could solve. Once a few problems were sorted it was a pretty racy car. Champcar's destiny was set in Sept 2006 and not much could have changed it.

Same with indycar, I think to really set themselves apart they needed to go radical and I think there are too many problems now that this new car can overcome. The golden goose has been cooked.

The only hope for revenue and competition is to bring in another manufacturer. But honda has already made it clear they are bare boning it, so I don't know how that would sit with them. They are fence sitters anyways and I wouldn't count on them.
I agree with you, mountainstar...today's announcement is a tiny piece of a huge puzzle that they need to put together and solve...It may be too late for that.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:50 (Ref:2726740)   #1024
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By the way Tim, either Baretzky from Audi is a liar or Miller is completely misinformed and doesn't care to know what the truth is.
I happen to know about some of the inside thinking that goes on at VW motorsport and their philosophy is that whatever motorsport programs are factory supported, they have to be relevant somehow to road cars they sell or a technology demonstrator that is used for research, development or marketing purposes.

So if an indycar program happens somehow you have to connect that with road cars and their technologies. They are also penny pinchers and want bang for the buck.

This is not going to be a car company willing to slap their name on the valve covers on any old engine just to say woo hoo we're in indycar.

I also happen to know about some of VW's future plans here in the USA for the next 5 years and well, it's going to be interesting.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:50 (Ref:2726741)   #1025
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I understand where you're coming from Jag, and I wouldn't have had a problem with that, personally (I think IndyCar's focus should be on becoming an engine focused formula). But with the exception of an HVM, SFR or DCR, how many of the teams go three years without buying a chassis, just for the sake of having a new chassis without wear and tear?

My major beef is with HPD, and their damn leases. If I were in charge(Not a particularly great idea, but I digress) I would put in for the WRE, and I'd find a way to work KERS in alongside it. I'd love to see the figures for S2000 engines as well. The engines are the back breaker in this equation
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