Ralt RT 2

[Dan Rear]

Jeremy

You're right, as usual (!) on the Wyatt RT2/RH6-81. It was Int Trophy in 82, not 81. If so I guess it could well have been an ex-works Honda car. Perhaps Ron T helped WS convert the car as a thanks for showcasing the RT3 so well in 1980. After all if Wyatt looked OK in the RT3, it must have been really special !!

Btw are we all certain Toleman had 4 RT2s in 79 ?

Separately, what do you have on TG280s from 80-83 ?

[Jeremy Jackson]

Dan,

As I said, nothing's absolutely certain re:RT2s, I'm just quoting the one source, with the usual caveats. If, as Allen said, chassis records aren't kept/are lost, we don't stand too much of a chance 20 years on.

Since Wyatt never arrived at a race with this TG280 in 1981, there's got to be a doubt whether he actually had an entity, I suppose. TG280s in general could do with their own thread maybe, rather than get a bit lost in this one!

Generally, my stance on F2 has been similar to Allen's i.e I've left it alone, so while I have some of my own notes, plus some Autosport reports + F1Register books, I haven't looked at how things all fit together.

[dereklola]

Allen's reference to Ralt records being lost was, I think, based on my comment to him in email correspondence earlier this year.

I have a letter to the previous owner of my Atlantic RT4-180 from a Stuart Barron at March Cars in 1994 - ie after they bought Ralt.

In part it says - your car (RT4-180) is not one of the F2 cars - from the chassis register these (the F2 cars) appear to be 172 and 181. By implication he was checking numbers around the 180 mark. And as I've said before there are physical differences such as fuel cell size.

In 2001 or 2002 I made an effort to find Stuart. Found him at some exotic racing exhaust manufacturer near Oxford and had a good conversation with him. In essense he said - well you know how it is - when March was dissolved nobody was interest in the old Ralt stuff - it just got chucked away. So there you are!

Hey I really appreciate all this stuff you guys have unearthed for me. I'll get the website updated soon (too busy restoring some of these cars right now!) - fully bearing in mind all the caveats you keep throwing around.

[allenbrown]

Derek

You are not the only person who has told me the Ralt records were thrown away at that point. However, I have been told someone kept a copy and I am actively pursuing that.

Allen

[dereklola]

Allen

That would be fantastic if you did unearth a copy.

Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Derek,

RT2-278 is for sale at race-cars.com, says "brought to the U.S. in 1996"

For what it's worth, what appears to be the same chassis was for sale in the UK in August 1995, as 1982 chassis, "believed only 2 races from new"

[Dan Rear]

Jeremy

If 278 is the ex-Wyatt car, and he only did 1 race in it, perhaps it had 1 outing for the works, maybe in 81 ??? Could it have been the one Thackwell wrecked at Thruxton in early 81, when he also did his career no good. Does the chassis no fit for an early 81 Ralt ?

[dereklola]

Jeremy

Yes - I know that car well. I know Brad Capshaw who imported it, Archie Urciuoli who owned it for several years and Dale Lang who just bought it last year - the "for sale" is, I believe, out of date.

Your comment about "for sale in UK in 1995" makes sense. Also now that we think we've identified it's early provenance so do the "1982 chassis" and "only two races from new" comments.

Thx a lot.

Completely OT - funnily enough both my Lolas were also "only 2 races from new" when I got them - the T460 in the Canadian Labatts series and T9150 in the Japanese F3000!

Now Dan - "only two races from new" might just be sales talk - ie not very accurate. But your comments aree interesting nevertheless.

Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Ah, I guess I was looking in their archives!

Dan, seems reasonable it was an ex-RH6, it was entered as such in 1982. I guess we may never know...

278, as we've discussed, is way out of sync. for the time, isn't it?

[dereklola]

Not necessarily way out of sync. My rough guideline on this is the total number of Ralts produced starting with the RT1 in 1975 and assuming the total production figures in Mike Lawrences book are reasonably good (although we seem to have agreed that the RT2 is not 100pc correct.

Based on that -
- 1975 - 1 thru 10
- 1976 - thru 38
- 1977 - thru 89
- 1978 - thru 144 - all RT1s so far
- 1979 - thru 169 - includes first RT2s
- 1980 - thru 202 - RT2/3/4/5 and RH6
- 1981 - thru 281
- 1982 - thru 363
- etc - 446 - 517 - 606 - 684 .....

This seems to fit in with about half a dozen later models (1985/86)I've either seen or seen advertised.

So 278 would fit in either late 1981 or early 1982 - reasonable - and who knows when the numbers were assigned - when the tub was received or when the car was finished, or when - and odd balls like one off RT2s might have taken some time to "finish".

Came across some small, grainy pics of an alleged RH6 on a Japanese website. Had Honda decals on. The centre section (cockpit/fuel cell area) looked as near identical to an RT2 as you tell from that flimsy evidence - possibly lending credibility to the confusion about RT2 Hondas and RH6 Harts.

OK - back to renovation work.

Derek

[allenbrown]

In my continuing attempts to be useful, I got this from Gary Gove this morning:

Just a blurb about the "Gove" car. This was never a formula B car, as this car won the 1979 Formula 2 Championship, carried chassis No. 2(written in electric pencil!) entered by Toleman Group Motorsport The car was penned originally by Ron Tauranac, at Ralt, but re-engineered by a young man at Toleman, one Rory Byrne, who now spends most of his time in Italy working on red cars....I went to Toleman, met with Rory,purchased the car and two Hart 420R engines, and myself, Chris Lovely, Pete Lovely and Butch Dennison dreamed up the coachwork over lunch. The car was the first two liter in 8 of the ten races in 1980. The car was sold to Jim Trueman, who continued it's winning ways in 1981.
Respectfully,
Gary Gove

Allen

[spearce]

Found a picture of the 'Stanley' car at home t'other day - its red !!! As far as I can remember it was a new car (similar to the Honda eng ones) built to accept the Hart. It didn't do many races before it was sold on.

[Jeremy Jackson]

Re: Allens' quote from Gary Gove, I give up, I know when I'm beaten... I don't have enough (or any) definite info. to put a case against it!

Or were the original sequential Ralt nos. overwritten/replaced?

I remember the Stanley car as red, it still was in the Autosport advert in 1995, and the race-cars.com one (mostly)

[Dan Rear]

Jeremy/Derek

Surely the Gove quote on his car being chassis "no2" can't be right. We're all agreed that Ralt nos were sequential, and very logical for it. I can only assume GG was told it was the 2nd RT2 built, may be its no. was modified by the works to help the sale ???

On the Wyatt car, perhaps it was a late 81/early 82 build, the no. seems to indicate this, so maybe it was brand new when he got it. Must have cost a bob or 2 I'd have thought, wonder where WS got his loot from, his cars never seemed to be spsonsored when i think about it.

On the Japanese RH6s, I think a good few went out there, no doubt at Hondas request/payment.

[dereklola]

"#2 written in electric pencil" could mean anything or nothing. When I gave the restored car a good look over last year there was no such obvious mark - and no Ralt plate either although, likewise, means nothing by now.

What Gary said ties in exactly with what Peter Lovely told me in person at Mount Tremblant this summer. Incidently in addition to their 8 wins the other two results were 2nd and 5th - not bad! Andit went on to won the U2L title the next year with Jim Trueman.

Found a pic of another Japanese RH6 on the web last night - both of them were green/white. Do we have any forum members who speak Japanese?

Derek

[allenbrown]

To me, "carried chassis No. 2(written in electric pencil!)" means Gary has a specific memory of seeing some chassis marking. It is quite consistent with Autosport reporting that the first RT2 was RT2-1.

I fear that although Ralt kept their sequential markings for their own internal records, that the Toleman team cars may not have carried those numbers. Could the design have been done by Ralt, and maybe the chassis build too, but the final build have been done by Byrne and others at Toleman? Could they have just ordered four tubs from Ralt and done a large proportion of the work themselves?

If so, we're looking for RT2-1, RT2-2, RT2-3 and maybe RT2-4 although I remain unconvinced that there was ever a fourth car.

Allen

[dereklola]

Allen

Interesting conjecture. It ties in with your report from Autosport but not with Jeremy's info (151/152/153/154) from F1R.

Nor with Ian's info on 152 from ZA. Although since he said the chassis plate is different from the normal Ralt one of that time maybe that was made when they bought it. I know Bernard Tilanus told me they visited Toleman to buy that car - but where did the plate come from? Could have been from anywhere.

Does Gary remember where that car's number was "electric penciled" on the tub. I could ask the other two owners to check theirs in the same place.

I suspect Arch Motors did not make the tubs. My RT2 has no Arch Motors number (although my RT4 has).

Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Derek,

As I said, F1R is not totally trustworthy, but since I'd seen references elewhere to 152 & 153(before this thread!), I thought here maybe "some" substance to the numbering. I did give a health warning with the F1R stuff!

Allen's conjecture of Ralt receiving tubs seems a good bet to me... but how F1R could track those to an allocation per race is a bit dodgy.

[IANHEB]

Derek,
The remains of the Ralt and the unfinished Lants are all locked away in a workshop in the depths of the Lahner factory complex.I saw them 5 or so years ago ,and a friend was in there a few months back looking at the 2 Marches and getting the Ralt gearbox.It is not really accesable i'm afraid.
I know Bernard and speak to him often,he has been one of the top drivers here for the last 30 years.We are both based in Joburg.The other cars he brought in in the early 80,s were ex Henton 782 Marches.
I presume from your comments that earlier Ralts than 152 do not have the style of chassis plate that i have described ?
There are another 2 or 3 Ralts still here,but they are RT4 Atlantics.
Regards
Ian

[dereklola]

Jeremy, Allen

I think we are all agreeing with each other!

I can understand Toleman assigning numbers 1, 2, 3 (and 4?) even if there were Ralts numbers as well. Didn't I hear/read somewhere that Toleman people were at Ralt for the final build of the first cars? Hey they were all pretty much cottage industries back then so personnel coming and going would be nothing strange.

The numbering could have happened the other way round. Toleman guys could have etched on their numbers while helping with the initial build, then Ralt may (or may not) have stuck on their official plates before the cars left the factory. And probably the build, with Toleman people, would have been separate from the RT1 build area. If that did happen then the etched numbers may only have been on the first car, or first couple of cars.

I understand your caution about F1R not being totaly reliable, but the numbers (151 etc) must have come from somewhere - I can't imagine F1R (or their reports/reporters) just inventing them for the fun of it!

Who knows? In the absence of definitive proof they are both feasible.

Derek

[dereklola]

Ian

Please give my regards to Bernard.

It is my understanding that RT1 Ralts have the same style of plate as the RT2/RT4 plates I posted earlier. There are a lot in historic racing here but I've never taken all that much interest (and most don't have plates anyhow!).

Derek

[dereklola]

"spearce" just sent me pic of 278 being worked on in Pete Harris' workshop in 1982/83.

One or two detail differences from the other RT2s but in particular I was intrigued to see that it seems to have a rocker arm rear suspension which is the third variant of RT2 rear suspension that I'm aware of. Maybe it came from the RH6? - or forerunner of what they did for the RT4 in 1983?

I'll send it on to the current owner.

Derek

[allenbrown]

I queried the numbering system with Gary and he sent this:

Hi, Allen......

There must be two different numbering systems.
The first RT2s, done by Ralt were a little flexible, and the Toleman cars were re-done by Rory Byrne, using better materials and a few design changes. All the tubs were built by Toleman. These were the cars used by Toleman. The drivers were Brian Henton, and as I remember it, Derek Warick. Somewhere in my gaggle of stuff I have an AutoSport with the car on the cover--when I find it I will resolve the driver discrepancy! Could be my memory has had a wobble!
At any rate, I went to England, to Tolemans, exained the cars, and after a hilarious Pub lunch with Rory and the mechanics, chose the car used the least by Henton, and the most by Warick, as Henton was a bit of a rock ape, wearing everything out every race!(ex: he used up a ring and pinion every race, I ran 10 races,+ all testing etc, never used up one). The Henton car had been used for hard testing just before I got there, and was really knackered... He had also had some pretty big accidents. My car had the number two written on the tub, in electric pencil, the other car the number one, written in the same fashion. I think the RT-167 is a number put on the tub after a replacement of the tub, which I believe was done in late 81 or 82.
Mine was the only RT-2 F2 car in the US in 80. In 1982 a few Tolemans, as opposed to Ralt F2 cars were raced in Can-Am. If Blackledge had a sister car, it was not in 80 or 81.
Gary Gove

A couple of points here I'd like to highlight. Firstly, although Gove is confusing the Henton/Warwick/TG280 season with the Henton/Dougal/RT2 season, his suggestion that Toleman and Byrne "redid" the RT2s is most interesting. Secondly, he remembers his "ex-Warwick" car being RT2-2 and the heavily tested ex-Henton one being RT2-1. I wonder if that heavily tested ex-Henton one was actually the prototype/spare and Henton's later race car RT2-3 was quietly tucked out of sight when the American arrived with his chequebook.

My suspicion is that F1R got hold of Ralt production records and found four entries 151-154 for the RT2s. They then made that fit the known race record. They may even have observed something different at the time but then "corrected" those observations when the factory records were made available. Only speculation...

Allen

[dereklola]

Allen

Good info and interesting recollections from Gary.

In addition to his mix up on Henton's partner in 1979 I think he is also wrong about there being no other RT2 in 1980 or 81. He is probably thinking about the Genoa car not being there in 80 or 81 (or 82 for that matter). However I can understand (or excuse) his memory lapse in that Blackledge was no where near as frequent an entrant nor as competitive as he or Genoa were.

Interesting comment about 167 possibly being a valid number and refering to a new tub - although the sequence of that number doesn't fit with a late 81 or 82 date.

Since 167's sequence would suggest a very late 79 date might it have been retubbed before it was shipped to the US? If so it also begs the question whether my 172 (very early 1980) might also have been a re-tub of a Toleman team car. All Blackledge's son could remember was that his father "went to the Ralt factory to buy the car" and "the CanAm body was already installed when the car arrived in the US". Bernard Tilanus told me he and Lahner "went to the Toleman shop and ended up buying their spare car".

Interesting stuff. Any progess on finding the copy of the chassis book?

Derek

[allenbrown]

Derek

Could Ralt have supplied a spare RT2 tub to Gove/Lovely in 1980 and the tub only get used 1981/82? Maybe they built a batch of RT2 tubs near the end of 1979? One of those could have been the car Ralt sold to Blackledge.

As for the Toleman RT2s, do we now have RT2-1 going to South Africa, RT2-2 to Gove and RT2-3 to Flammini? Any evidence of any other ex-Toleman cars? I'm still not convinced they ever had four cars.

Allen