Ralt RT 2 - Page 4

dereklola · 8 Dec 2003, 01:48 (Ref:1558380)

Allen

I understand your concern about F1R's use of numbers 151/52/53/54 but that info must have come from somewhere, the ZA car provided an unsolicited ref to 152 so I'm inclined to believe that the chassis book did have those numbers (hope you can find the copy that you think exists). The question is how do these numbers relate to the 3 cars Toleman had in 1979 to which they apparently assigned at least a #2 and therefore maybe #1 and #3 as well. And did they have three cars or four. Was the fourth possibly just a tub?

I agree you can read Gary Gove's comment on #167 more than one way. If "his" car was retubbed in 81 or 82 it would have been after they sold it to Trueman and possibly after they sold it to Ausca.

That car currently has the original rear legs and rear suspension - unlike mine (172) and Winkelhock's (181) - which had RT4 rear suspension. So whatever the story is on 167 it is not identical to mine. I agree however that 167 could have been a spare tub used by the "Gove" car.

After all that I tend to agree that Toleman #1 seems to have been the hardworked first car that Henton used and then became the spare car after he got #3. Then it went to ZA as RT2-152. Gove and his electric pencil are #2 which was the more gently used Dougal car. And the remaining car, #3, became Vesuvio/Flammini for 80/81 F2, then Genoa/Romano/Fangio for 83/84 CanAm.

If we knew where the electric pencil #2 was on the tub I could ask the current owner of #3 to look for it.

Derek

allenbrown · 8 Dec 2003, 13:00 (Ref:1558381)

Derek

Do we have a picture of that 152 chassis plate?

Allen

dereklola · 8 Dec 2003, 13:42 (Ref:1558382)

No. Ian from ZA responded immediately when we mentioned those numbers and said that the Lahner/Tilanus car was 152. When I posted pix of my two plates he said the ZA car had a different plate "more like the old Brabhams". He also said he didn't have access to it now.

I think I get your drift though!

Derek

Dan Rear · 8 Dec 2003, 13:58 (Ref:1558383)

Allen, I agree. Have no evidence wither way, other than memory, but I always thought there were only 3 RT2s, later tubds notwithstanding. I have them like you, ie one to Genoa/Flammini, one to ZA, one to Gove/CanAm.

The 278 car mentioned above that we think is probably a Hart engined RH6, did that go the US too, albeit a year or 2 later ? Is the Pete Harris mentioned the chap who yused to run Paul Smith (BMTR)'s FAt/F2 cars ??

dereklola · 8 Dec 2003, 14:32 (Ref:1558384)

Dan

Yes - 278 came to the US about 1996 and is regularly historic raced. I doubted its number until this discourse so thanks for that!

Saying it is a Hart engined RH6 may be misleading. So far as I can tell RT2s and RH6s are almost the same from the roll bar forward. However - the Honda V6 was a stressed member and the Hart/BMWs used an engine frame - aluminium "legs" extending rearwards from the tub. 278 certainly has the RT2 design of legs etc.

Summary of current locations -
- Gove car - Indiana, Atlantic spec
- Genoa car - California, CanAm spec
- ZA car - Joburg, dismantled
- 172 - Detroit, CanAm spec renovation
- 181 - Germany, F2, CanAm body available
- 278 - Florida, F2 spec.

Derek

Jeremy Jackson · 8 Dec 2003, 15:56 (Ref:1558385)

The original "plan" in 1979 , according to Autosport's Silverstone report was for 4 chassis - "The Toleman team spent he winter tooling up for their Ralt chassis - they will have four".

Whether this actually happened or not...

dereklola · 8 Dec 2003, 16:07 (Ref:1558386)

....which might explain the four chassis numbers......

Dan Rear · 8 Dec 2003, 16:31 (Ref:1558387)

But.... if there were 4, where did the 4th go after Tolemans ?

dereklola · 8 Dec 2003, 18:13 (Ref:1558388)

Dan

I think that is Allen's point - he's not convinced there ever were four.

Jeremy has now found an AS article saying the PLAN was for four - which might explain the four chassis numbers 151-154. Maybe Ralt just allocated those numbers regardless of whether they all got built or not. Maybe one was just a tub - etc - etc.

Derek

allenbrown · 8 Dec 2003, 19:26 (Ref:1558389)

Derek

You are exactly right about where my thinking was going. I have at least one example in F5000 (and I think there are more in F2) of a car being given a new chassis plate (to replace a missing one) with the number taken from F1R data. So it is possible (unlikely - but possible) that a car was given a 152 chassis plate because it was "known" to be ex-Dougal and the F1R book said 152 was Dougal's car.

Chassis plates are about 90% reliable in my F1/F5000 experience but that still means one in every ten could be a red herring.

Allen

Jeremy Jackson · 8 Dec 2003, 19:27 (Ref:1558390)

Or maybe one got put in Ralt's skip, or...etc. Without anything first-hand, it's a bit difficult at 24 years distance. Memory can't be relied upon anyway!

lifeline-fire · 12 Dec 2003, 14:59 (Ref:1558393)

I dont know if this is of any help but I am sure that RALT as well as putting the chassis number on a plate also stamped it in to the front bulkhead of the tub along with the initials of the fabricator responsible for that car. One of my 1985 F3 cars certainly has this and I have seen it on others. The only problem is however that the front bulkheads were quite often replaced due to accident damage.

dereklola · 12 Dec 2003, 15:31 (Ref:1558394)

I've been wrong before in this life but I think that was just the Arch Motors tub number - not the Ralt chassis number. Unfortunately the RT2 tubs don't seem to have been built by AM - or at least never got an AM number.

For example my RT-172 has no AM number but my RT4-180 (built at almost the same time) does.

Derek

lifeline-fire · 12 Dec 2003, 15:48 (Ref:1558395)

Derek

Sorry for that I will have a look this weekend. I must have been given some duff information

Kind regards

JIM

spearce · 15 Dec 2003, 09:10 (Ref:1558396)

I dropped my Lola FF chassis off at arch motors on sat. They had the damaged F2 tub from Mike Thackwell's Thruxton shunt there - not a pretty sight.

dereklola · 15 Dec 2003, 14:04 (Ref:1558397)

Herewegoagain - you did of course get pictures of the chassis plate, AM number and electric pencil doodling!?

Seriously - which RT2 do we now think this is? Unless Thackwell had a BMW engine we ocunt out the "German" car. If the accident was in early 1981 then we count out #278 because that sequence would have been late 1981 build. It can't have been one of the Toleman cars - the Gove car was in CanAm by then - the 2nd car was in Italy (Vesuvio/Flammini) and the 3rd one was in ZA. And my car was in CanAm.

So which car was it? Was it indeed an RT2? Was it the mysterious 4th Toleman car? Or an RT4 with 2L engine? A TG280? Or what?

At least seeing it there seems to show that Arch built replacement tubs even if not the original ones.

HELP - Derek

Jeremy Jackson · 15 Dec 2003, 15:47 (Ref:1558398)

Oh, what the hell,I'll take the bait...

Derek, this would be the RH6-Honda that Thackwell crashed in practice at the Thruxton F2 race in 1981...??

Presumably now without a Ralt identity, as the same one may have been used for the replacement?

spearce · 15 Dec 2003, 17:03 (Ref:1558399)

It was several feet up in the air, so sorry no chassis no, but yes JJ, it was the works Honda powered one from Thruxton.

Dan Rear · 16 Dec 2003, 12:36 (Ref:1558400)

I'm amazed that the tub, presumably in pretty poor state, has survived at all after 23 years or so. Wonder why it wasn't just scrapped completely at some point since 81. The cynic in me says for 'legal reasons', maybe not ...

Charles Warner · 25 Jan 2004, 18:29 (Ref:1558405)

Derek,

I'm sure we've talked about this before, but, Arch Motors had several places the A.M. number was stamped on the Ralts. Normally, facing the front bulkhead, it was stamped either upper left or upper right corner. They also, for whatever reason, sometimes stamped it on the forward facing side of the front roll hoop.

Dan Rear · 30 Mar 2004, 15:35 (Ref:1558406)

On the 'March 772-05' thread on here, there's a great link to Iain Nicholsons site. This has a picture of George MacMillan in an RT2 at an Ingliston Libre in 1982. I'd forgotten about this car. Any ideas as to its history, or was it an RT4 modified ?

There are some good 'memory joggers' on the site too, eg Bob Rollos March, the Smith/Jones Surtees and Ensign F1s, Ted Dzerziek Ensign, plus a Scottish B25/B27 (can't recall the driver now !).

fines · 16 Apr 2004, 16:57 (Ref:1558407)

Interestingly, Manfred Cassani offered both an RT2 and an RT4 for sale in the autumn of 1980! I presume he simply got the designations all mixed up, and the RT2 would've been the RT1 in reality - he was asking twice as much (60,000 Deutschmarks) for the RT4!

allenbrown · 1 Jul 2004, 14:31 (Ref:1558408)

This needs to be back at the top again. See the Cicale Ralt Can-Am car thread.

Adam Ferrington · 1 Jul 2004, 16:53 (Ref:1558410)

RT2s from the Ralt list
Note :- before c/no 151 type no. was not listed but I believe all were RT1s

RT2-152 Toleman F2
RT2-153 Toleman F2
RT2-154 Toleman F2
RT2-172 Robertson (agent) marked Can-Am - delivered 12/6/80
RT2-181 Cassani F2
RT2-278 Stanley F2 delivered 18/2/82 (Allen, I missed this one on the e-mail I sent yesterday)

No other RT2s listed

ADAM

Posted originally on wrong thread!

Jeremy Jackson · 1 Jul 2004, 21:00 (Ref:1558411)

Good. Glad we've finally confirmed only 3 Toleman RT2s, (despite the best efforts of F1R...)

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