[WEC] 2015 WEC Discussion

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Something that's always bothered me - who says that FIA is the only organization capable of giving out "World Champion" titles? Why is the FIA the only body that governs tracks? I didn't vote for them, and strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

I mean I know they have the WEC and F1 and the resources, but what's to keep organizations from saying, uh, screw you, we're going to crown our own champions on race tracks with lava for runoff and back straights that go through the pit lane itself and long sweepers in school zones.

Great ideas and they'll fit in nicely with a paddock start while the grid is being opened to the general public!

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Great ideas and they'll fit in nicely with a paddock start while the grid is being opened to the general public!

I think you meant "parking lot" start

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Rare yellows vs no yellows, no contact vs paint swapping, competent Race Control vs shambles and penalties... okay, that's a different story entirely.

If WEC raced on tracks with grass and gravel instead of carparks you would have more yellows (and we don't need to go into the whole matter of US marshals and the insurance claims if there is no FCY)

Contact and RC actions are organizational mindset differences. These are not different 'styles' of racing, but different approaches to the same thing.

Look, if LMP1 was a new never before seen formula created for this year it would be more acceptable to see them limiting themselves to Grade 1, but since 12 months ago these cars were running at Lime Rock or wherever this kind of BS from Neveu makes mockery of it.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Look, if LMP1 was a new never before seen formula created for this year it would be more acceptable to see them limiting themselves to Grade 1, but since 12 months ago these cars were running at Lime Rock or wherever this kind of BS from Neveu makes mockery of it.

IMSA ran the cars at Lime Rock, and it's IMSA that's preventing LMP1 at Sebring. I did mention something along these lines on the previous page, as long as IMSA runs the 12 Hours with TUSC there won't be a WEC race at Sebring, neither the 12 Hours nor a standalone race at a different time of year (although that one for probably different reasons).

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

IMSA ran the cars at Lime Rock,

It's not who run them but the fact that we know these cars can take non-F1 tracks. And Lime Rock was just an example, if you want ACO let's throw Road Atlantas and Zhuhais of three years ago

and it's IMSA that's preventing LMP1 at Sebring. I did mention something along these lines on the previous page, as long as IMSA runs the 12 Hours with TUSC there won't be a WEC race at Sebring, neither the 12 Hours nor a standalone race at a different time of year (although that one for probably different reasons).

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Any other sportscar race at Sebring outside the 12 Hours would be a start-up without a major fanbase to start with. And WEC can never run there for the 12 Hours as long as IMSA runs that race, because there is no physical possibility of running that many cars together on that track (unless they resurrect the pre-1990 layout and make the track longer).

I'm sorry, but do you all want a "6 Hours of Sebring" in October or something, and then take the event apart and call it a "sacrilege" because top sportscars are not running the 12 Hours? Because that's the only possibility at the moment (unless TUSC dies, which is still rather unlikely).

I know there's still lots of reasons to be negative about WEC, TUSC et al, but it's wrong to focus ONLY on that side of things. Do we want sportscar racing to return to the state it was just after WSPC and IMSA GT collapsed?

Getting rid of the pro-am classes would make room for the integration, and/or pre-quali. But neither side is willing to compromise on that. The 2012 Sebring fiasco could've been avoided if FIA/ACO had not wanted unnecessary separate classifications for their own cars and if IMSA had made compromises with the spec classes.

Anyway, while I would still rather see the "6 Hours of Sebring" in October than anything they have in store for the F1 tracks, I do agree that it would be rather shadowy figure in contrast to the 12 hours. Of course it would be. That's why I would rather see P1 integrated to NAEC. But since IMSA/NASCAR won't bother, they could still organize races at Laguna or Road America or Road America and they certainly wouldn't be in the shadow of anything. But as we know that's not gonna happen.

There are positives of WEC such as the seemingly blooming LMP1. But that shouldn't mean that we can't laugh at such absurd ignorant comments as mr Neveu has given us again.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Look, if LMP1 was a new never before seen formula created for this year it would be more acceptable to see them limiting themselves to Grade 1, but since 12 months ago these cars were running at Lime Rock or wherever this kind of BS from Neveu makes mockery of it.

But not three factories going head to head with all the speed and risk that involves!

Have you already forgotten the accidents at Le Mans in recent years? These cars are very very fast and dangerous in the wrong environments. Three big time manufacturers going all out is not the same as some privateers racing LMP1 cars for fun in the ALMS as in recent years.

We have already had some scary LMP1 crashes at Sebring in testing with no other cars around, one of these crashes was severe enough to sideline a driver for half a season.

The FIA and the WEC are just being responsible in confining these cars to safe tracks, having one track in the calendar that already does not really meet current safety standards is plenty of risk in my book.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That's why I would rather see P1 integrated to NAEC. And even if not, they could still organize races at Laguna or Road America or Road America and they certainly wouldn't be in the shadow of anything. But as we know that's not gonna happen.

Correct, neither of these is going to happen: NAEC is still TUSC, so that's the major hanging point because of TUSC's top class, while starting from scratch now with a different US round, even at a proper track like those two, is simply not going to work as a standalone event. So different solutions are needed for WEC races in North America.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

IMSA ran the cars at Lime Rock, and it's IMSA that's preventing LMP1 at Sebring. I did mention something along these lines on the previous page, as long as IMSA runs the 12 Hours with TUSC there won't be a WEC race at Sebring, neither the 12 Hours nor a standalone race at a different time of year (although that one for probably different reasons).

Agreed on the 12H but I don't see why WEC couldn't run a separate 6 hours race at Sebring (and since the manufacturers like to test there for LM it would make sense to schedule it in the spring). The 'downfall' of the 12H will be more to IMSA screwing up their product than a 'competitor's series' giving act-de-presence.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Agreed on the 12H but I don't see why WEC couldn't run a separate 6 hours race at Sebring (and since the manufacturers like to test there for LM it would make sense to schedule it in the spring). The 'downfall' of the 12H will be more to IMSA screwing up their product than a 'competitor's series' giving act-de-presence.

Because it would be torn down and viewed as "sacrilege" because it is not the 12 Hours.

[Purist]

Get off of Sebring. He swept ALL of the other tracks here out the cutting room floor. He didn't even mention Road America or Mosport Park! Hell, the way they're going with the latter, it will look like a Grade 1 circuit soon enough, with all that paved run-off and new buildings and the like.

Safety, necessity, or technical requirements do NOT have **** to do with this, or Grade 1 circuits. It's convenience, image, perceived prestige, etc. THEY just want THEIR fancy little private, exclusive club.

And again, LMP1 only needs a Grade 2 circuit. There are plenty of those in North America; just look at where the ALMS went. Lime Rock gets a historical exemption, I suppose, but apart from that, a circuit only need be 3.0-km to make Grade 2, and Laguna Seca CAN easily handle 30 cars for a six-hour race.

So, once more, "technically impossible" is a load of bovine fecal matter. It's merely code for, "You're just not good enough for us, because we say so, and we don't wanna go there."

Acid, the tracks ALMS used would be fine. Bad accidents happen EVERYWHERE! And these high-downforce cars, including LMPs, Indy/Champ Cars, F1, etc, have ALWAYS had some issues with sudden, vertical impacts. The tracks have comparatively NOTHING to do with that aspect of it; that's a car design issue.

Paved run-offs are a convenience, as is having the barriers a couple post codes away. And while they do all this, they turn the fanbase off, because they restrict access, and take away NECESSARY frames of reference that allow the cars and drivers to look like they're actually doing something impressive, awe-inspiring, and worthy of our respect. If they make the tracks like parking lots with painted lines, well, the drivers aren't respecting them, so why should we?! I mean, if the participants don't even consider the venues to be worth giving that extra measure of effort, precision, restraint, caution, and respect, those tracks DON'T DESERVE those things from us!

What I have just stated is why these Tilke F1 circuits will NEVER be loved or revered like the old greats, because they DON'T PERMIT the sensory impact that CAN COMPEL a person to find that love for the sport and for that place in which it occurs. You wonder why "established" motorsport is having such difficulties drawing new fans? The is a HUGE part of it.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Acid09

But not three factories going head to head with all the speed and risk that involves!

Have you already forgotten the accidents at Le Mans in recent years? These cars are very very fast and dangerous in the wrong environments. Three big time manufacturers going all out is not the same as some privateers racing LMP1 cars for fun in the ALMS as in recent years.

We have already had some scary LMP1 crashes at Sebring in testing with no other cars around, one of these crashes was severe enough to sideline a driver for half a season.

The FIA and the WEC are just being responsible in confining these cars to safe tracks, having one track in the calendar that already does not really meet current safety standards is plenty of risk in my book.

I - Audi and Peugeot seemed to run at decent speed on quite a few non Grade 1 and other established tracks without causing mayhem all the time (ILMC Imola 6H was green for the entire race for example).

II - I guess Duval was in the middle of an intense on track battle when he had his horror crash at LM this year...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

But not three factories going head to head with all the speed and risk that involves!

Have you already forgotten the accidents at Le Mans in recent years? These cars are very very fast and dangerous in the wrong environments. Three big time manufacturers going all out is not the same as some privateers racing LMP1 cars for fun in the ALMS as in recent years.

We have already had some scary LMP1 crashes at Sebring in testing with no other cars around, one of these crashes was severe enough to sideline a driver for half a season.

The FIA and the WEC are just being responsible in confining these cars to safe tracks, having one track in the calendar that already does not really meet current safety standards is plenty of risk in my book.

The risk level has evolved, however if R18 gets airborne I don't see it ending up well whether we are at CotA or Road Atlanta. The main focus should be on improving car safety (which they have done, good)

Yes, teams are now taking ever more risks now in the traffic AND with the tracks. But here comes the negative side of these asphaltdromes and widened expansions - drivers (as they should) are looking for every opportunity for quicker lap time, and now that you can shortcut corners and chicanes almost everywhere the risk level rises exponentially. With no grass or gravel you don't have to respect the track anymore but can violate it almost everywhere without consequence from both lap time or race control actions (just watch Corvette Corner at LM). That leads to accidents -> over confidence.

When Audi vs Pug (ie pretty much as fierce as top fight is now) was at the mightiest they raced at Sebring and PLM and wherever without issues.

[TF110]

Bolding some words doesnt make them mean something specific. Going to have to look for the context of his words. Questions must have been asked. You cant run with Tusc all the time. The tracks in question probably arent willing to sign on for a standalone wec event, or someone else is pulling their strings. No way to have 4 races in the U.S. alone, so where you go is not a 'pick and choose' deal. Common sense says they want a certain thing, but the choices are small if theyre going to be succesful. Taking apart the article by sentences and words doesn't read the way its intended. Its more "finding fault".

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

II - I guess Duval was in the middle of an intense on track battle when he had his horror crash at LM this year...

No he wasn't. As I said, having one of these "unsafe" circuits in the schedule is enough risk as it is but Le Mans is Le Mans and always be so everyone is happy to take that risk.

Personally, I think sticking to Grade 1 tracks outside of Le Mans is a wise choice, not only is it safer but these circuits also allow the kind of interruption-free racing the WEC has been providing and couldn't at Sebring or Road Atlanta.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes, teams are now taking ever more risks now in the traffic AND with the tracks. But here comes the negative side of these asphaltdromes and widened expansions - drivers (as they should) are looking for every opportunity for quicker lap time, and now that you can shortcut corners and chicanes almost everywhere the risk level rises exponentially. You don't have to respect the track anymore but can violate it almost everywhere without consequence from both lap time or race control actions (just watch Corvette Corner at LM). That leads to accidents -> over confidence.

It may lead to overconfidence and small incidents but those are almost never serious because of the runoff. I can't recall a serious LMP1 crash outside of Le Mans in the WEC and yet I can think of several that happened at Sebring while testing!

Personally, I don't see the issue here. There's another fine Grade 1 track in NA the WEC can go to (Montreal) and with two races in NA the continent would have its appropriate share of races within the current scope of the WEC calendar.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Correct, neither of these is going to happen: NAEC is still TUSC, so that's the major hanging point because of TUSC's top class, while starting from scratch now with a different US round, even at a proper track like those two, is simply not going to work as a standalone event. So different solutions are needed for WEC races in North America.

A co-event with Indycar and/or support from PWC could certainly work but that's not what Neveu/the FIA wants. Like Purist points out, they want exclusivity and vips, not trying to build on the sportscar & GT heritage. It's the F1 model they're applying.

[TF110]

You make your own heritage. You cant just rely on the past. Mexico City has a long history. Same for Montreal. The wec isnt in the past, its here now and wants to make its name known. Theyre going to have to do it somehow.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

Bolding some words doesnt make them mean something specific. Going to have to look for the context of his words. Questions must have been asked. You cant run with Tusc all the time. The tracks in question probably arent willing to sign on for a standalone wec event, or someone else is pulling their strings. No way to have 4 races in the U.S. alone, so where you go is not a 'pick and choose' deal. Common sense says they want a certain thing, but the choices are small if theyre going to be succesful. Taking apart the article by sentences and words doesn't read the way its intended. Its more "finding fault".

It's called 'highlighting' and it helps to emphasize something.

Neveu should have realized that his words contained some 'arguable' comments, they were not my choice but his.

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by TF110

You cant run with Tusc all the time. The tracks in question probably arent willing to sign on for a standalone wec event, or someone else is pulling their strings. No way to have 4 races in the U.S. alone, so where you go is not a 'pick and choose' deal. Common sense says they want a certain thing, but the choices are small if theyre going to be succesful.

Are you referring to the Neveu quote?

“We know that in the United States there’s not a lot of options for us and for the style of racing we have,” he said. “Historically you can say Sebring, Petit Le Mans and Laguna Seca were the logical places to welcome endurance races. But we know that it’s technically impossible [now].

Certainly sounds to me like it isn't a business or scheduling consideration but a "technical" one, which is bull. Audi, Peugeot, Acura and Porsche raced together on tracks like these (sometimes with 40 car grids) in what were arguably faster cars than today's P1s. Perhaps it's "politically" impossible, but not technically.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

You make your own heritage. You cant just rely on the past. Mexico City has a long history. Same for Montreal. The wec isnt in the past, its here now and wants to make its name known. Theyre going to have to do it somehow.

Going to Laguna Seca or Road America or Mid-Ohio or something like that as standalone event would't be relying on history. They could make their name there right now and most likely get larger crowds than at Texas heat (especially if paired up with local domestic series). But ignorant "technical" excuses as these that allegedly prevent them from even considering these venues and artificially locking themselves to grand total of three possible options don't help in that.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Like Purist points out, they want exclusivity and vips, not trying to build on the sportscar & GT heritage. It's the F1 model they're applying.

And what if the F1 model doesn't work in WEC? Well, it's their fault right? Nope, they'll wash their hands as if they don't have anything to do about its failures.

[Coach Ep]

Ok, I'm calming down (watching some IMSA racing helps sometimes! ), thx for the lively discussion everyone, I've enjoyed it so far!

[Purist]

Acid, did you see last year's Grand-Am race at Austin? One of the DPs was launched off of the sausage curb at the entry to the esses (Turn 3-9). What would be the consequences of that for an LMP1, going much faster, and weighing 400+lb less?

These asphalt run-offs created short-cutting, so now they try to add speed bumps, and we're seeing what happens as a result of that. We had the GP3 car at Spa, and Heidfeld in Formula E at Beijing. Also, one of those speed bumps at Les Combes tipped over an F3 car last year, and a third to a half of the entire bloody field is apparently so desensitized by how sanitized these tracks have become that they completely ignored the FCY that came out, as a result of that flipped car, and had a 6-9-car smash-up on the run down into Houhon! Did you see Kimi Raikkonen's crash at this year's British GP?

Spa has seen bad incidents since the changes from 2006 to 2007, and it's a Grade 1. Someone was killed in an incident at the big Vintage gathering at Silverstone, of all places, this summer. So, these "safety" measures are hardly a guarantee, and since they encourage more bad driver behavior, they make things MORE dangerous, given the utter rarity of catastrophic mechanical issues these days.

Also, the Grade 1 standard is inconsistent. You tell me I'll get people killed building a new track to that older standard, but those older tracks are still allowed to be around in F1. Why?! Either the Laws of Physics, and no other "authority", decree something is safe, or it isn't, period!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It may lead to overconfidence and small incidents but those are almost never serious because of the runoff. I can't recall a serious LMP1 crash outside of Le Mans in the WEC and yet I can think of several that happened at Sebring while testing!

Other than odd debacle at Sunset or RA back stretch I don't remember any particular incidents for big P1s happening at Sebring or PLM races. They are the same kind of incidents that happen everywhere, WEC too (like Toyota / Kodewa debacle at Interlagos etc) and it's normal. And as for Sebring testing, yes there have been some. But I vividly remember horrific monocoque destroying testing crashes happening at Paul Ricard for Toyota for example, it's not circuit dependent.

Big LMP crashes of the last few years at LM have kept happening not so much because of the "danger" of the circuit, but because of the said ever increasing asphalt expansions, increasingly ill judged traffic decisions from GTs (like Toyota 12) or protos (like Audis 11), changing dynamic of the class structure, weather, as well as the fact that it's the only race that really really matters so everyone's pushing.

[David Land]

Originally Posted by TF110

You make your own heritage. You cant just rely on the past. Mexico City has a long history. Same for Montreal. The wec isnt in the past, its here now and wants to make its name known. Theyre going to have to do it somehow.

Racing in glorified parking lots in the Middle East in front of a few oil barons in the suites and a camel that happens to be passing by is not 'making your own heritage'.