[WEC] 2015 WEC Discussion

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

That remains to be seen - as soon as the majority of the manufacturers withdraw the championship will either quickly or slowly come to an end.

This can be said about every single championship in the world so I'm not sure what your point is. Of course it remains to be seen how long the WEC will survive but there is no indication that anything detrimental will happen in the near future.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Privateer entrants don't need to do the WEC to get an a spot on the grid at Le Mans but can run in one the regional series (as was shown this year) and spent considerable less money.

Most privateers won't enter WEC but for those who want to be in a world championship, the WEC is their only destination. This is especially true for people who have loads of money.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

If the WEC had one or two other big events, the lure for entrants would be bigger, now it's all and only about Le Mans, keeping everything the same (or even converting to a 'winter schedule' without changing anything else) will maintain that situation.

Creating a new big event isn't going to have that pull. Maybe bringing in an existing big event might. But Daytona and Sebring are for sure not going to happen if IMSA/NASCAR/USCC remain in control. And the WEC entry list isn't going to exceed 35ish entries anyway in order for non-WEC entries to enter Le Mans...unless they change that philosophy.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Salamus

This can be said about every single championship in the world so I'm not sure what your point is. Of course it remains to be seen how long the WEC will survive but there is no indication that anything detrimental will happen in the near future.

There was no indication of Peugeot's immediate and complete withdrawal at the beginning of 2012 either...

Originally Posted by Salamus

Most privateers won't enter WEC but for those who want to be in a world championship, the WEC is their only destination. This is especially true for people who have loads of money.

The majority of the P2 and GTE-Am entrants are privateers who's bills are being paid by rich folks, correct. Their destination however is Le Mans - not the WEC - it only provides them the desired guaranteed entry for LM. They do like to do other iconic and major sportscar & GT events in the world though (Daytona 24H, Sebring 12H, Nurburgring 24H, Spa 24H, Petit, Bathurst 12H, etc.)

Originally Posted by Salamus

Creating a new big event isn't going to have that pull. Maybe bringing in an existing big event might. But Daytona and Sebring are for sure not going to happen if IMSA/NASCAR/USCC remain in control. And the WEC entry list isn't going to exceed 35ish entries anyway in order for non-WEC entries to enter Le Mans...unless they change that philosophy.

As seen this year quite a number of WEC entries didn't show at LM or in the WEC at all, no need to cap the championship to low 30s.

One of the few existing events that could be used for creating another iconic sportscar race is the Mil Milhas at Interlagos (just set the race duration to 9,5 hours but keep the 'branding'). Creating an entire new one is more difficult but can be done as the Petit has shown us, a 12 hours race at Road America for instance could be really successful if the scheduling and the promotion of the race is done properly.

[Pandemonium]

WEC is doing fantasting. Enough of your weird logic. Yes racing is expensive we all know that. Does Audi care? NOPE.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Judging by the people in USCC wanting a shorter schedule with longer races, people in WEC probably feel the same way. So no, 500km or 3 hour races are probably not what they want.

Is there much benefit in the six hour format for the manufacturers though... it's what they're being served and I guess it's doing okay for them, but if you don't ever try anything different how can you see if there are benefits...

If you had three or four hour regular races Eurosport could show full or near full broadcasts instead of 90 minutes at the end or whatever. Remember the length of the race altogether was the reason ES dropped FIA GT years ago.

And for the endurance aspect and/or LM preparation the mentioned 12/10 hour race(s)

I agree with this. It would be cool to have a 10 or 12 hour race. Or at least the Mil Milhas again. But right now, it isn't absolutely essential.

What is essential now then? "Stability" year after year?

Eliminating the "filler" classes isn't a good idea so that's never going to happen.

I only really meant ELMS GT3 by that, as it was a reference to possible WEC-ELMS integration.

Or if that's too scary - pre-qualifying eliminations for the (lesser classes). A la GTC at Petit Le Mans in 2011 I believe?

Anyway tracks like Nurburgring could surely take 70 ish car grids in, it's just that FIA would very likely prevent such huge numbers ever from happening even if there was opportunity. Remember that 2012 Spa 6 Hours fiasco where the entry was capped to 42 cars when they couldn't bother to use the secondary pits for no reason.

And auto invites are sort of redundant since the WEC field already is guaranteed in and most of the "local entries" will be invited anyway or have cars that aren't eligible to run at Le Mans.

WEC field is guaranteed for those who run in the following year, not the year the said 10/12 hour is held. And as for local entries running non-compliant machinery - that's never prevented ACO for giving entries anyway (GTE-AM for winning GTC/GT3, LMP2 for LMPC etc). So yeah those auto entries would come handy.

If you want to use the old WSC as an example, the majority of races in that time were 6 Hours or 1000km. The "standardization" that you are so against was quite common back then too. If memory serves correct, the WSC rarely ran at Sebring, Daytona, and Le Mans in the same year after the 60's.

In the last four years of WSC there was only one 1000km event. And prior that in the Group C era, yes most races were 1000km but not automatically standardized as such - you had 300km, 800km, 200 mail races in the mix. The first year with sole 1000kms besides LM is 1984 - same with 82 to 83 - but when you go to 1981 it's full of variety again: 24h, 12h, 6h, 1000km, 500 miles. That was also the year they still run Daytona and Sebring.

IThe standardization isn't a big deal...every championship in the world has a standard distance outside of its big events.

Every championship doesn't have standard distances!

I mean look at USCC: 24h, 12h, 1000mil, 6h, 2h45min, 2h, 1h40min, 45min

Or Super GT: 1000km, 500km, 300km, 250km

And if one really is into variety, just look into V8 Supercars and their million different varying formats.

I forgot to add this. Le Mans is bigger than the championship itself, that's true. But Le Mans is also 80+ years older. The WEC will become more important/prestigious as it gets older.

If you do not count ILMC into WEC that's (sort of) fine, but if you really consider WEC as true world championship world sportscar surely that makes it direct sequel to the old World Sportscar Championship? Now, it doesn't mean that this year marks 43rd running of that old championship, however it does mean that this is the 43rd running of officially sanctioned championship for sportscars in general. It might be a new generation, but it belongs to the same continuum.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

The majority of the P2 and GTE-Am entrants are privateers who's bills are being paid by rich folks, correct. Their destination however is Le Mans - not the WEC - it only provides them the desired guaranteed entry for LM. They do like to do other iconic and major sportscar & GT events in the world though (Daytona 24H, Sebring 12H, Nurburgring 24H, Spa 24H, Petit, Bathurst 12H, etc.)

Very very true.

You know if the automatic LM entry was removed from the regulations and LM was one off race again (my preference anyway), that would REALLY show how much interest there actually is for world sportscar championship right now. With the other series we always knew for sure, but when you have the most important motor race in the world in your calendar where the entry is quaranteed, you have to ask yourself: how many of these teams really care about the series, and how many are just there cause it basically awards them free entry?

[Gulf]

I wish they could find a better American track, Austin is so boring. Maybe Sebring will be free once Tuscar goes out of business.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Gulf

I wish they could find a better American track, Austin is so boring. Maybe Sebring will be free once Tuscar goes out of business.

If they wanted they could already race at Sebring, not as 12h for now obviously but on different date (or as support race...). The track is owned by NASCAR after the Panoz sellout but why would they have anything against it

Audi and Porsche test there in spring time anyway

[carbon_titanium]

WEC with his FIA track grade 1 obsession won't never come back soon at sebring. To me, the only 2 reasonable alternatives in NA are indianapolis or montreal.

Audi, porsche (bmw tested the schubert cars for 24N) and others test at sebring because if their cars are able to run 24-30hours at sebring, can do anywhere else in the world.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Chiana

If they wanted they could already race at Sebring, not as 12h for now obviously but on different date (or as support race...). The track is owned by NASCAR after the Panoz sellout but why would they have anything against it

Audi and Porsche test there in spring time anyway

Nascar won't let anything upstage their "show".

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

WEC with his FIA track grade 1 obsession won't never come back soon at sebring. To me, the only 2 reasonable alternatives in NA are indianapolis or montreal.

Audi, porsche (bmw tested the schubert cars for 24N) and others test at sebring because if their cars are able to run 24-30hours at sebring, can do anywhere else in the world.

I didn't say it was realistic, I said if they wanted for it to happen they could

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Is there much benefit in the six hour format for the manufacturers though... it's what they're being served and I guess it's doing okay for them, but if you don't ever try anything different how can you see if there are benefits...

If you had three or four hour regular races Eurosport could show full or near full broadcasts instead of 90 minutes at the end or whatever. Remember the length of the race altogether was the reason ES dropped FIA GT years ago.

And for the endurance aspect and/or LM preparation the mentioned 12/10 hour race(s)

You're right, nobody knows what will really benefit until they try. But I don't think shorter races will work for two reasons: 1) WEC is all about endurance, 6+ hour races, 2) I don't think teams want to travel the world and do 3 hour races.

Like I said before, I agree that it would be interesting if they had an 8, 10, or 12 hour race. Depending on what track they do it on, it would be a great addition to the schedule.

Originally Posted by Chiana

What is essential now then? "Stability" year after year?

Yes. Having the same races and building on these events will strengthen the entire championship. And if they can expand the schedule and add a couple more races, then we can have a solid schedule. Montreal, if it happens, would be a great addition.

Originally Posted by Chiana

I only really meant ELMS GT3 by that, as it was a reference to possible WEC-ELMS integration.

Or if that's too scary - pre-qualifying eliminations for the (lesser classes). A la GTC at Petit Le Mans in 2011 I believe?

Pre-qualifying eliminations are even scarier. You allow teams to come to the event and then don't let them race...this isn't 1985 anymore.

I don't think auto invites are that important. The best teams are going to Le Mans anyway.

Originally Posted by Chiana

In the last four years of WSC there was only one 1000km event. And prior that in the Group C era, yes most races were 1000km but not automatically standardized as such - you had 300km, 800km, 200 mail races in the mix. The first year with sole 1000kms besides LM is 1984 - same with 82 to 83 - but when you go to 1981 it's full of variety again: 24h, 12h, 6h, 1000km, 500 miles. That was also the year they still run Daytona and Sebring.

The overwhelming majority of racing from the 60's, 70's, and 80's were 6 Hours or 1000 km. The big events (Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans) were longer.

From 1968 to 1988, only 27 races were less than 1000 km or 6 hours. That's only 12% of the races (27/225). You refer to 1989 and the seasons afterwards but fail to mention that those were standardized distances as well! The distances were just shorter.

The standardization of the current schedule isn't a big deal. It's been like this since the beginning of the LMS.

BTW the first year with sole 6H/1000 km races was 1974.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Every championship doesn't have standard distances!

I mean look at USCC: 24h, 12h, 1000mil, 6h, 2h45min, 2h, 1h40min, 45min

Or Super GT: 1000km, 500km, 300km, 250km

And if one really is into variety, just look into V8 Supercars and their million different varying formats.

You've mentioned championships that don't have standard distances. If I wanted, I could list a ton of championships that do have standard distances.

Originally Posted by Chiana

If you do not count ILMC into WEC that's (sort of) fine, but if you really consider WEC as true world championship world sportscar surely that makes it direct sequel to the old World Sportscar Championship? Now, it doesn't mean that this year marks 43rd running of that old championship, however it does mean that this is the 43rd running of officially sanctioned championship for sportscars in general. It might be a new generation, but it belongs to the same continuum.

A 20 year gap between seasons is very unhealthy for a championship. Almost nobody today besides sportscar fans know of the WSC. The point you are trying to make here has no merit. The WEC started in 2012, it's going into its 4th season and it's a very young championship.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Salamus

You're right, nobody knows what will really benefit until they try. But I don't think shorter races will work for two reasons: 1) WEC is all about endurance, 6+ hour races, 2) I don't think teams want to travel the world and do 3 hour races.

Like I said before, I agree that it would be interesting if they had an 8, 10, or 12 hour race. Depending on what track they do it on, it would be a great addition to the schedule.

WTCC teams travel around the world - in a way more extensively too - for double 60km races...

WEC (should be called WSC) is all about endurance because it's constructed as so. Anyway, let's just say that the 6h distance for regular races was retained, fine - but you could still have a couple of races that were "sprints" (2 to 4h) there in between somewhere. Like the suggested Norisring sprint here. You could have the 24h, 12 or 10 mini enduro, pack of 6 hours plus one or two shorter events. Variety, something.

Yes. Having the same races and building on these events will strengthen the entire championship. And if they can expand the schedule and add a couple more races, then we can have a solid schedule. Montreal, if it happens, would be a great addition.

But if we're talking of stability and keeping the costs at bay, surely it's more important to retain the number of races around 8 even if it means different venues/countries, rather than expand it beyond that number?

Also how much can you build on Bahrain 6 Hours? I mean I know that one is there literally because of the cash being offered (someone's been reading Uncle Bernard's Business Secrets 101) but is there not a better alternative anywhere?

I guess with China it's an important market place (for the factories, not privateers though) and Shanghai is the only Grade 1 track in there - knowing their obsession - so no secret why it's chosen.

Interlagos is the only Grade 1 track in South America so it's understandable - again if they can only race on those for some reason - but there is no reason whatsoever why Cota should remain on the most important market places of them all, particularly if they get crap crowd again. The people ain't magically gonna come there even if you keep on "building the event" for the next five years.

I guess I'm fine with the European ones and Fuji, even if I don't like the tracks...

Pre-qualifying eliminations are even scarier. You allow teams to come to the event and then don't let them race...this isn't 1985 anymore.

Not fast enough = no race. Up until the turn of the century Le Mans itself had the same exact ideology with the Test Day - you weren't fast enough, get out! And frankly, that might've been harsh but it ensured quality.

Even Marshall Pruett was suggesting these eliminations for USCC last year.

In principle it's the same thing as with the (pro am element of) P2, GTE-AM and P1-L today - everybody is given trophies for turning up today.

Anyway, again, that was just aimed for the actual filler class of ELMS, not the ACO categories.

I don't think auto invites are that important. The best teams are going to Le Mans anyway.

If such statement was true anybody couldn't be able to buy themselves a grid position at Le Mans like you are right now with WEC, in the expense of someone else good not getting in. In the past years we've had many great teams, factory or near factories left out to the reserves.

The overwhelming majority of racing from the 60's, 70's, and 80's were 6 Hours or 1000 km. The big events (Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans) were longer.

From 1968 to 1988, only 27 races were less than 1000 km or 6 hours. That's only 12% of the races (27/225). You refer to 1989 and the seasons afterwards but fail to mention that those were standardized distances as well! The distances were just shorter.

The standardization of the current schedule isn't a big deal. It's been like this since the beginning of the LMS.

BTW the first year with sole 6H/1000 km races was 1974.

During the history of WSC most of them were 1000km/6h, yes I never disagreed with that, however not all of them.

Another point is that even though Daytona and Sebring etc bigger events were not part of the World Sportscar Championship every single year and certainly not in the final years, your primary categories were still able to participate for those races. Even during those 89-92 years which had standardized 480km distances (which I'd prefer anyway). Now not only are none of them present, but LMP1s can't even race on them!

You are right of the standardization of the modern day ACO races. With the exception of few (Mil Milhas 2007, Okayama 500+500km, Paul Ricard 8h 2010) it was pretty much 1000km every season for the European and Asian races. However with the ILMC they did break the chain and incorporate different distances.

I've said it before but in my mind the 2011 ILMC season is closer to real world sportscar championship than any of the WEC ones. Not only did you have the "classics" and races held on right market areas with heavy focus on Europe and North America, there was also the grid integration with the regional series to make big fantastic grids that helped both the world and regional series. ILMC was fabulous.

You've mentioned championships that don't have standard distances. If I wanted, I could list a ton of championships that do have standard distances.

Didn't you say before "every championship in the world has a standard distance outside of its big events."? So please tell me again what did I do wrong in listing those few series

Sure you could list a ton of series with standard distances, but so could I with non standard distances. And in the history of sportscar racing there are more cases of non-standardization than standardization.

A 20 year gap between seasons is very unhealthy for a championship. Almost nobody today besides sportscar fans know of the WSC. The point you are trying to make here has no merit. The WEC started in 2012, it's going into its 4th season and it's a very young championship.

Again, I didn't say it was the same championship, but it is still the 43rd season of world championship for sportscars, not the 3rd. So Le Mans isn't 80+ years ahead as you said.

Besides, if nobody but diehard fans remember the old WSC in 2014, doesn't that just further prove the previous point of mine that events have always been more important than championships in sportsar racing? Let's say this series continues to run with Le Mans and the "some other rounds" for the next five years and then suddenly dies (let's just say it does). Then for years there are zillions of other series going around while the big events like LM and Petit and Sebring and N24 and others keep going. By 2040, how many are going to remember this series ever existed? Nobody but the diehard fans. They will remember the big events though - which the series is again lacking.

If LMP1 hadn't been banned from literally every event in the world except these 8 races, I could be more lenient on this. But if in 2040 someone wants to remember those epic Audi vs Porsche vs Toyota vs Nissan battles, all they are gonna remember is Le Mans and maybe some other things somewhere that were used as preparation for Le Mans.

[David Land]

Originally Posted by Gulf

I wish they could find a better American track, Austin is so boring. Maybe Sebring will be free once Tuscar goes out of business.

Personally I would want them at Road Atlanta.

For selfish reasons I want them at Indy... I lost my home TUSCAR race.

[Maelochs]

Is stability important? I'd say in a way yes, because fans who attend often plan an entire season's racing before the season starts, or even ends. However, track attendance is a tiny part of the picture—TV/video rights are usually a better source of income for a series, as sponsor dollars, and a stable schedule doesn't really affect those so much, while promotion does.

As for changing the length of races, I don't see a strong argument either way. Would shorter races be better attended? I see no evidence—in fact, most racing fans I have spoken with prefer a full day of racing if they are going to the track, and TV/video fans seem willing to watch longer events. How many people are really loudly clamoring for shorter events? I cannot name three.

Are fans truly bored by eight six-hour races per year? Would one nine-hour race really dramatically increase fan interest? I can't see why, and I have never heard three different people say anything about it.

"Also how much can you build on Bahrain 6 Hours? I mean I know that one is there literally because of the cash being offered (someone's been reading Uncle Bernard's Business Secrets 101) but is there not a better alternative anywhere?"

What's there to build on? That race makes money for the series because the organizers are willing to pay for it. No sense replacing it unless it is at a venue which will make more money for the series. Any suggestions for a more profitable venue?

Obviously the series wants to race where it can make the most money, and it wants to follow Bernie's lead and put on a big show. One of the main reasons F1 is what it is today is because Bernie Ecclestone demanded that the series be treated like Racing Royalty. When he and Max Mosely took over the series was expensive club-racing. Bernie realized it could be a highly profitable business but it had to look and act like a top-tier racing series to pull it off.

I assume WEC feels the same way (Yes, I Assume.) They go to Grade 1 tracks because the facilities are so much better there, not just for the teams, but for the B2B customers and the high rollers the series wants to attract.

Compare WEC to TUSC, which is racing at VIR this weekend, with its PC class racing with a support series and its two GT classes racing alone. VIR is a really pretty venue and a really good track, but where do the rich folk stay? How does it look on TV? What kind of amenities does it offer to B2B customers, corporate execs who might sponsor?

On top of that, the whole weekend is basically support races, with the second and fourth class of TUSC cars competing as headliners. Not a great marketing opportunity—the whole thing feels low-rent. Sure race fans will love it, but the kind of people who are willing to sleep in their cars to watch racing aren't the kind of people who can Pay for racing.

As for pre-qualifying ...

If racing still offered the cubic tobacco and motor-oil dollars (or low operating costs) of past decades, that might make sense. Right now teams simply cannot afford to travel to a race and not race. No one would sponsor a team which might not race. We are way past the days when anyone with a torch could build a car—and racing is too expensive for even rich people to pay for it all out of pocket.

We as fans are going to suffer a lot more than we already are if our expectations (not our dreams, which should be wild and free) are totally unrealistic. If we fail or refuse to understand the economics of racing, we will wish for things which might kill the very series we want to heal.

Yeah, series managements often make completely bone-headed decisions, blow easy opportunities and throw away the best parts to augment the worst. But as fans, we should at least criticize them rationally.

" if nobody but diehard fans remember the old WSC in 2014, doesn't that just further prove the previous point of mine that events have always been more important than championships in sportsar racing?"

No, it proves that only diehard fans follow the sport at all. Not even diehard fans are generally clear on all the various permutations (Interserie, Can-Am, WSC, PSCR, IMSA, SCCA, WEC, ILMC, WEC, ALMS, GA, FIA, PWC, ACO, USAC, AAA, SRO, Trans Am, TUSC, BES, ADAC, AsLMS, ELMS, LMS .... just a very few of the many which have been active in the past few decades or so.)

So what? Is Le Mans more important than the championship? Measured how? In terms of public awareness Le Mans has a Lot more—most non-fans don't know there are any other races. So what?

As with the Indy 500, without the feature race, there would be very little public awareness, but without the supporting series there would be no one racing in the feature race. Le Mans has seen some dark days—having a series for specifically Le Mans-style cars is a smart economic move.

Even the biggest factories might balk at spending the kind of money they spend at Le Mans if it were one-and-done, because they would know that would be a bad business proposition. Since only one car in fourteen can win even in class, the odds are stacked badly against most entries, so who would pay to Lose the biggest sports car race of the year if it were a one-off?

To make a Le Mans-style team feasible, the teams have to offer sponsors more than one chance in one race once a year. So ... if the series is necessary to support the main event and the main event is necessary to support the series .... it's like asking if your left or right leg is more important. You aren't walking far with only one, whichever.

Would the series have more cachet, more fan awareness, if it raced at Road America, Spa, Sebring, Kyalami? Probably ... but only among race fans who already know the WEC schedule, so really, no gain that way.

As you say, the general public has never heard of WSC, ILMC, WEC ... so they don't care. Put an exciting ad in front of them and the letters of the sanctioning body are meaningless—the action is the key. People who have never heard of those classic tracks don't care who used to race there. if they like what they see right now, they like it.

" By 2040, how many are going to remember this series ever existed? Nobody but the diehard fans. They will remember the big events though - which the series is again lacking."

Sorry, but by 2040, nobody but diehard fans will remember anything about racing, which might not even exist by then, because all cars will be autodrive. In any case, only the diehard fans remember the Mille Miglia, or have heard of the Nurburgring. How many people remember the Carrera Panamerica?

The issue isn't whether people who don't care remember what they never cared about twenty years from now. The issue is, the series making enough money to keep racing so the vast majority of fans who couldn't attend more than one race a year no matter what, can keep watching on TV or the Internet—after all, if we can't even watch the races, do they ever really happen?

A lot of PC teams who were at Kansas can answer that one.

[Alex Langheck]

I think the organisers are learning as they go along. They'll make mistakes, and hopefully learn.
I fear the 'winter' championship could be a mistake. I'm in a minority who doesn't want to see Le Mans as the season finale; it doesn't need building up anymore. Leave it as it is, it almost sells itself. No, work on all the other races, build up the WEC ( should be WSC) as a proper series. Rather than the current Le Mans, and supporting 6 Hour races. The current TV deal is a further example; MotorsTV get the WEC, minus Le Mans......madness. I know it's hard, but start thinking about the WEC as a series. Not Le Mans plus some minor supporting races.... The sport is going nowhere with that attitude.

I'd like to see maybe a 10 and/or 12 hour race introduced. And maybe start the season with a 3 hour race, or the first race after Le Mans - just to get everybody back in the groove. Say, in Germany or Italy, and have qualifying in the morning with the race later in the evening.
This season's 3 month gap is madness. Just what were they thinking? Decisions like that leave me slightly worried about those in charge.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Alex Langheck

I'd like to see maybe a 10 and/or 12 hour race introduced.

Would probably be quite well received by us Southeastern US fans....I'm sure that's not what you were getting at, but when thinking if I know of any 12 or 10 hours races...

[EricS]

Originally Posted by Alex Langheck

This season's 3 month gap is madness. Just what were they thinking? Decisions like that leave me slightly worried about those in charge.

Remember, Sao Paolo was originally scheduled for end of August. It was moved in late January.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by EricS

Remember, Sao Paolo was originally scheduled for end of August. It was moved in late January.

2½ month gap would've still been ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Is stability important? I'd say in a way yes, because fans who attend often plan an entire season's racing before the season starts, or even ends. However, track attendance is a tiny part of the picture—TV/video rights are usually a better source of income for a series, as sponsor dollars, and a stable schedule doesn't really affect those so much, while promotion does.

As for changing the length of races, I don't see a strong argument either way. Would shorter races be better attended? I see no evidence—in fact, most racing fans I have spoken with prefer a full day of racing if they are going to the track, and TV/video fans seem willing to watch longer events. How many people are really loudly clamoring for shorter events? I cannot name three.

In the first segment you say that track attendance is only tiny part of the picture and in the second you are saying that they would not fancy shorter racing. So is track attendance important or not?

And yes, I'm sure loads of TV/video people are perfectly happy with the longer events, but how many are turning off because of the length? On non-sportscar places I've met many, they don't either have the attention span or have no time to spend the time in front of telly/PC. And since we are talking about the TV I'm gonna repeat what I said before - surely shorter regular races would suit the broadcasters better, Eurosport specifically.

Are fans truly bored by eight six-hour races per year? Would one nine-hour race really dramatically increase fan interest? I can't see why, and I have never heard three different people say anything about it.

I don't think you read what I wrote at all. I said:

Now would something like Fuji 12 Hours really make it special? I mean quite literally that would just mean 6 extra hours to the current format on a track not universally loved anyways. No not really, but it would still be different and 12 hours actually does test the car. You could improve the spectacle by inviting other classes in too, like AsLMS did (and only did, foolishly) with Super GT's GT300 class last year at Fuji. Or heck just integrate the Asian Le Mans Series for that one race, as ILMC did. Or ELMS if we we're talking of European event, eliminate filler classes if grid capacity is too high. You could also start giving automatic invites for the class winners as PLM used to do. Sky is the limit - unless it's the FIA burearchy that is preventing all these different things out of total standardization that ILMC and previous series practiced.

Just adding random number of hours to the 6 hours won't really make it magically better crowd magnet, but you can boost it up by making the event stand out more and special. And it's not all about the fan interest but creating another non-LM milestone event, particularly for LMP1 teams which have no other place to compete.

What's there to build on? That race makes money for the series because the organizers are willing to pay for it. No sense replacing it unless it is at a venue which will make more money for the series. Any suggestions for a more profitable venue?

Obviously the series wants to race where it can make the most money, and it wants to follow Bernie's lead and put on a big show. One of the main reasons F1 is what it is today is because Bernie Ecclestone demanded that the series be treated like Racing Royalty. When he and Max Mosely took over the series was expensive club-racing. Bernie realized it could be a highly profitable business but it had to look and act like a top-tier racing series to pull it off.

Isn't this the same thing as with the paywall-streams? Should they really be just running wherever the quick cash is being offered? Yes F1 is in a place where everyone pays for them to show up but this series is not.

I assume WEC feels the same way (Yes, I Assume.) They go to Grade 1 tracks because the facilities are so much better there, not just for the teams, but for the B2B customers and the high rollers the series wants to attract.

Compare WEC to TUSC, which is racing at VIR this weekend, with its PC class racing with a support series and its two GT classes racing alone. VIR is a really pretty venue and a really good track, but where do the rich folk stay? How does it look on TV? What kind of amenities does it offer to B2B customers, corporate execs who might sponsor?

On top of that, the whole weekend is basically support races, with the second and fourth class of TUSC cars competing as headliners. Not a great marketing opportunity—the whole thing feels low-rent. Sure race fans will love it, but the kind of people who are willing to sleep in their cars to watch racing aren't the kind of people who can Pay for racing.

I do agree that it is the reason for the Grade 1 obsession. As sad as it may be.

As for VIR, I'm not going to say that or this for the USCC reference. However, as much as I adore it I would never consider it for WEC (unless like half of the races were in NA) for the same-ish reasons you just presented , but surely Road America and Roat Atlanta would do the job heck of a lot better.

As for pre-qualifying ...

If racing still offered the cubic tobacco and motor-oil dollars (or low operating costs) of past decades, that might make sense. Right now teams simply cannot afford to travel to a race and not race. No one would sponsor a team which might not race. We are way past the days when anyone with a torch could build a car—and racing is too expensive for even rich people to pay for it all out of pocket.

We as fans are going to suffer a lot more than we already are if our expectations (not our dreams, which should be wild and free) are totally unrealistic. If we fail or refuse to understand the economics of racing, we will wish for things which might kill the very series we want to heal.

Yeah, series managements often make completely bone-headed decisions, blow easy opportunities and throw away the best parts to augment the worst. But as fans, we should at least criticize them rationally.

The whole pre-qualifying idea was just an alternative for your class, in this case ELMS GTC not to show up at all in an event (if oversubscribed). Is that better? How would LMPC or LMP3 in the future feel if in the future at Daytona they weren't allowed to run at all? Would they rather take A) total rejection B) some half-ass support race before the 24 a la Kansas/VIR C) pre-quali. I don't know.

By the way, referring costs. Even if we just go for that turn of the century period when such thing as pre-qualifying still existed: yes surely the economics were in different shape but in a time when privateer teams were capable of fielding big LMP1 and GT1 cars, was the situation really any better cost wise? Those things required large budgets to be able to operate them - and there were no proam categories and other "easier" places for you to run. You just had to cope with the factories in the same class.

I would say we can equally blame the economics as well as the ever growing desire to try to please everyone equally. Just as with the whole BoP ideology.

No, it proves that only diehard fans follow the sport at all. Not even diehard fans are generally clear on all the various permutations (Interserie, Can-Am, WSC, PSCR, IMSA, SCCA, WEC, ILMC, WEC, ALMS, GA, FIA, PWC, ACO, USAC, AAA, SRO, Trans Am, TUSC, BES, ADAC, AsLMS, ELMS, LMS .... just a very few of the many which have been active in the past few decades or so.)

So what? Is Le Mans more important than the championship? Measured how? In terms of public awareness Le Mans has a Lot more—most non-fans don't know there are any other races. So what?

As with the Indy 500, without the feature race, there would be very little public awareness, but without the supporting series there would be no one racing in the feature race. Le Mans has seen some dark days—having a series for specifically Le Mans-style cars is a smart economic move.

---

To make a Le Mans-style team feasible, the teams have to offer sponsors more than one chance in one race once a year. So ... if the series is necessary to support the main event and the main event is necessary to support the series .... it's like asking if your left or right leg is more important. You aren't walking far with only one, whichever.

Sorry I don't understand the point you are making here.

Nowhere have I said that there shouldn't be races surrounding Le Mans (and as for me not personally wanting it to be part of the championship -> it's mainly for auto entry reasons), of course there should be. The other races are important for the reasons you just mentioned but they should be events itself, not just "rounds" / practice races for Le Mans. ALMS for example understood this concept very well, the other races besides Sebring and PLM felt worth something.

Even the biggest factories might balk at spending the kind of money they spend at Le Mans if it were one-and-done, because they would know that would be a bad business proposition. Since only one car in fourteen can win even in class, the odds are stacked badly against most entries, so who would pay to Lose the biggest sports car race of the year if it were a one-off?

But Le Mans is one-and-done... when you finish up 3rd in LMP2 it means more than winning the championship. The championship gives something for them to do for the rest of the year and is good for the business but really it is just waiting for the next season. Having bigger races in between creates additional goals.

Would the series have more cachet, more fan awareness, if it raced at Road America, Spa, Sebring, Kyalami? Probably ... but only among race fans who already know the WEC schedule, so really, no gain that way.

As you say, the general public has never heard of WSC, ILMC, WEC ... so they don't care. Put an exciting ad in front of them and the letters of the sanctioning body are meaningless—the action is the key. People who have never heard of those classic tracks don't care who used to race there. if they like what they see right now, they like it.

Yes I do agree that if people don't know how it could be better they won't complain if they like the product otherwise...

However, having all-Grade 1 mindset lures them into thinking that only F1 tracks are possible for this series... which I guess is true now anyway...

Sorry, but by 2040, nobody but diehard fans will remember anything about racing, which might not even exist by then, because all cars will be autodrive. In any case, only the diehard fans remember the Mille Miglia, or have heard of the Nurburgring. How many people remember the Carrera Panamerica?

This is is all as much speculation as my comments about 2040

As for Carrera Panamerica and stuff, nobody remembers them cause they are dead. If Sebring is alive by 2040 - or heck even Spa 24 - people will remember them. Not the massive public because for them Le Mans is the only sportscar race on Earth, but the same sort of public that is watching non-LM sportscar racing right now.

The issue isn't whether people who don't care remember what they never cared about twenty years from now. The issue is, the series making enough money to keep racing so the vast majority of fans who couldn't attend more than one race a year no matter what, can keep watching on TV or the Internet—after all, if we can't even watch the races, do they ever really happen?

A lot of PC teams who were at Kansas can answer that one.

There are more sportscar series on television and web now than ever before. I'm not worried by the current direction on that front.

Case Kansas wasn't down to money but because the series management didn't give rats ass about the event or the categories that were running there.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

2½ month gap would've still been ridiculous.

Not really. The WEC is not like F1 where every race in the calendar is equally important, Le Mans overshadows everything so you have to leave some room after that for the interest to build back up.

Even as a hardcore fan I had problems getting excited about a regular season race just three weeks after Le Mans. A bit of pause is necessary, not to mention looking at it from the technical/recovery point of view for the teams.

I really have no idea why this is such a thorn in many people's sides, a six week break after Le Mans is the minimum that makes sense, imo. Yes, this year's break is too long but it has been explained countless times on why it is the case.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Not really. The WEC is not like F1 where every race in the calendar is equally important, Le Mans overshadows everything so you have to leave some room after that for the interest to build back up.

Even as a hardcore fan I had problems getting excited about a regular season race just three weeks after Le Mans. A bit of pause is necessary, not to mention looking at it from the technical/recovery point of view for the teams.

I really have no idea why this is such a thorn in many people's sides, a six week break after Le Mans is the minimum that makes sense, imo. Yes, this year's break is too long but it has been explained countless times on why it is the case.

USCC teams race two weeks after Le Mans.

ALMS Lime Rock / first post-LM event used to be 2-3 weeks after Le Mans (and in those times there used to be heck of a lot more NA teams at LM) with no problems whatsoever.

ILMC Imola was at the start of July.

Even ELMS Red Bull Ring is a month after Le Mans. And Asian freaking no-one-wants-to-race-here Series.

Some of the drivers did Le Mans, Nurburgring 24 Hours and Glen three weeks in a row this year.

But Le Mans with the biggest factories deserves six weeks minimum? And eight to twelve in reality... Even when WEC re-started with Silverstone/Intl in August everybody had already forgotten the series existed. Furthermore, having such massive gaps in the schedule only puts more emphasis on 24 Hours and increasea the gap between regular races and Le Mans' status as the end-of-all-races.

IMO Mid-July would be perfect timing. Summer is the most natural time to race when people have most free time usually anyway. That's what North American series specifically always understood well.

Originally Posted by Alex Langheck

I think the organisers are learning as they go along. They'll make mistakes, and hopefully learn.
I fear the 'winter' championship could be a mistake. I'm in a minority who doesn't want to see Le Mans as the season finale; it doesn't need building up anymore. Leave it as it is, it almost sells itself. No, work on all the other races, build up the WEC ( should be WSC) as a proper series. Rather than the current Le Mans, and supporting 6 Hour races. The current TV deal is a further example; MotorsTV get the WEC, minus Le Mans......madness. I know it's hard, but start thinking about the WEC as a series. Not Le Mans plus some minor supporting races.... The sport is going nowhere with that attitude.

I'd like to see maybe a 10 and/or 12 hour race introduced. And maybe start the season with a 3 hour race, or the first race after Le Mans - just to get everybody back in the groove. Say, in Germany or Italy, and have qualifying in the morning with the race later in the evening.
This season's 3 month gap is madness. Just what were they thinking? Decisions like that leave me slightly worried about those in charge.

Agreed with everything!

[TF110]

Some people think that 'endurance fans' make up the whole base of those who watch or attend races. Families, manufacturer personelle/followers, nationality backers, casuals etc. are probably bigger draws than anything. It goes back to that privateer talk. But actually, fans of Porsche, Toyota, Audi, Aston Martin, Ferrari outnumber those of guys like Oak, Rebellion etc. So with that, going to places these manufacturers support and where their fans reside are going to be priority. Toyota owns Fuji, and over 40,000 people were there. Do those Japanese fans think about the 'sea of runoff' area? Or are they happy they have a wec race in their land with a factory team competing for wins? Maybe Autopolis or Suzuka are a better layout or track design, but Toyota owns Fuji. If Porsche wants a race at their track, maybe theyll convince the FIA to hold one there. Maybe Ferrari says we want Monza or Imola. Imo, thats the major reason most tracks on this schedule are there. And thats a good reason to me because it makes sense, especially for a world championship.

[Deleted]

If I was in charge in a world that was not made of total fantasies (as in WEC 50 Hours of Nordschleife ) and the race numbers were still limited to 8, the market areas would go as
4 races in Europe
3 in North America
1 in Asia (Japan)
(though with the larger presence of Japanese brands now I could sacrifice fourth European for second Asian)

Regional series would support the World Series and not cannibalize. Three continents would still grant a status of FIA World Championship - that's what the regs say. This would also decrease the costs. If time came for expansion beyond 8 then we could start talking of the other three continents.

However, however: You know if I put my personal disgust towards the Grade 1 force feed through my throat and discount the terrible gaps in scheduling as well ignore my own accusations of regular races being more irrelevant than they should, I will say this: there is absolutely no doubt in mind that - putting ALL the other teams aside - Audi, Porsche, Toyota (and Nissan) are just fine with the proceedings currently.

Audi would probably want Sebring to still be around as hanging place (as part of the champioship or not) but otherwise I cannot really think something they could complain. The focus on Le Mans is great, there is much leisure time to test and the VIP opportunities on these F1 circuits are great, whether anyone comes to see them or not. If they, as well as the other factories really wanted for something to happen, such as the German round, ACO would obviously go and please them immediately. As long as FIA was happy with the track they wanted to run on I suppose...

[MagVanisher]

You can replace one NA venue for either Interlagos (as Mil Milhas) or the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez (as Carrera Panamericana even though it's held at a Grade 1 track).

Having both Sebring and possibly Daytona in WEC is good, with the latter having 4-6 hours.

For European rounds (other than Le Mans), Spa-Francochamps and Monza can switch places from one season to the next.

[TF110]

Id like 12 races. Thinking two in Japan; Suzuka and Autopolis or Fuji. One in China (manufacturer playground, 1.3 billion people). Malaysia or Australia in the Northern Hemisphere winter months. Spa Monza Nurburgring UK (other than silverstone). 2 in North America. And Brazil in addition to Le Mans.

But that wont happen. Hopefully theres a new round in 2015, we should find out soon.

[hondafan37]

I would like to have 14 races of 500 KM.

my calendar could be so:

August: Nurburgring and Sochi
September: Montreal and Austin
October: Fuji and Surfers Paradise
November: Shangai and Bahrein
December: Abu Dhabi
January: Interlagos
February: Montmelo
March: Monza
April: Silverstone
May: Spa
June: 24 hours of Le mans

[Spyderman]

January in the tropics will be more of a powerboat race.

For me, anything under 1000 Km is not an endurance race.