[BTCC] Race 1, 2 & 3 - Brands Hatch, Kent - 5th April 2009

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Great racing weekend as described in all posts.

I would be questioning two drivers ability over the weekend tho.

Dave Pinkey, my tip for a shocker this year and really was outclassed by Shedden. Whilst I think Dynamic are in decline Pinkney only added to this. Has to up his game or it could become damaging to Dynamics credability to run a poss works team in the near future.

I think it's fair to say that without Dave Pinkney, there may not have been any Team Dynamics this year. Certainly not one as competitive as they are.

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Hang on, Plato is still in a works car and all the testing Vaukhard has done was Thruxton (Accident), Rockingham and Brands Hatch (Accident).

Vaulkhard did testing in Portugal over the winter as well.

Did the CWCZR Leons run with bio-fuel at the weekend? I couldn't get close enough for a sniff as they passed.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Did the CWCZR Leons run with bio-fuel at the weekend? I couldn't get close enough for a sniff as they passed.

I assume so - something on track smelled odd.

[Craner Curves]

I thought that was the driving standards.

[brands hatch]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The big disappointments for me was Arena (that Focus was just toooo slow).

I agree . I expected them to be much more on the pace, especially with Chilton Behind the wheel.

[MikeH]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I thought that was the driving standards.

Probably more likely the trackside catering. They use all sorts of weird oils!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by brands hatch

I agree . I expected them to be much more on the pace, especially with Chilton Behind the wheel.

I expected them to be nearer the pace despite having Chilton at the wheel.

[Craner Curves]

Not even Jenson Button could have had that Focus up at the sharp end. Chronic engine problems at the moment. Until they sort that out, there's no point in even tinkering with the handling too much.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Intentional or not, Adam took the lead through with illegal move. It is only fair that the positions were reversed post-race.

If the same thing applies to all contacts, then I'm ok with it. Me, I'm a touring car driver and I had a similar accident in Vallelunga and I didn't get penalized because tv footage showed it was non-intentional.
IMO it was a racing accident, it was the first time that Adam went into that corner following Plato, Jason had to brake earlier due to understeering problems (which is not something I'm blaming him for, of course!) and Adam braked at his normal braking point. There was nothing he could do to avoid contact, which is the key to deciding wether to penalize or not, even before intentionality.
Of course, Plato defended himself proudly from the attacks of many great drivers and he undoubtedly deserves that win, too, but this is a contact sport and stuff like this can happen.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by redshoes

- Vaulkhard's car is the same year/spec as the one Plato was driving so the 'world class car' applies equally to both.
- RML are supplying assistance to Tempus and some of the Tempus mechanics are ex-RML staff so I don't think you can class them as a 'startup team'.
- Neither RML or Tempus have any prior data on how to set the car up on Dunlop tyres - what WTCC Advan data RML had will be of little relevance - yet what Plato/RML acheived in two free practice sessions was more than Vaulkhard/Tempus had done from several days of testing.

I think Icebaby's assessment is spot on. I'm not expecting Vaulkhard to outperform Plato but in what is essentially equal equipment I would expect him to do a lot better than he did.

Former RML technicians don't make it another RML team, certainly helps but not decisive IMO. The team is new because putting together people who have never worked together before is not easy and makes Tempus much different from RML. Having said that, you surely can't class the as a startup team, but neither can you put them on the same level as RML, N Technology, Schnitzer, RBM and so on.
True that they didn't have data on Dunlop tyres. Also true that a car reacts the same way if you change something. EG if I change the front toe or the springs, the car will change its behaviour in the same way, like more oversteery or more understeery, no matter which tyre you have. Certainly the Dunlops are a big change, but if you know the car better you can more quickly reach the spot on setup.
Having said that, if Harry had been close to Plato I'd have picked him for a works deal immediately, since Jason has more than 10 years of experience in Btcc, while Vaulkhard is only in his 2nd season. Certainly Plato has a lot more in his feet than Harry at the moment, but I believe that the progress he showed (remember he already scored more than twice the points he scored throughout the whole 2008 campaign) are something to think accurately about. He certainly needs more maturity, but there is some talent in Vaulkhard, IMO.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Jason has more than 10 years of experience in Btcc, while Vaulkhard is only in his 2nd season.

Andrew Jordan is also only in his second season and he is a lot closer to Neal/Giovanardi than Vaulkhard is to Plato.

I realise that a few ex-RML techs do not make another RML but these are not inexperienced people and have done a considerable amount of pre-season testing.

[Super Hans]

No disrespect to Vaulkhard, but he isn't from the top drawer. He can't be expected to measure up to the likes of Jason Plato.

[awrb]

Don't forget that Jordan's alongside Gio and Neal in that team, the last for championships. Not having a teammate could really be hurting Vaulkhard, if only just in terms of set up.

[Icebaby]

[QUOTE=Craner Curves;2435871]I think it's fair to say that without Dave Pinkney, there may not have been any Team Dynamics this year. Certainly not one as competitive as they are.

Vaulkhard did testing in Portugal over the winter as well.

Are Dynamics in that much trouble that they needed Pinkney and his funding to run this year?, If so it does look like they don't have much in the pot to improve the pace. As said I really fear for Dynamics, the glory days are long gone.

Vaulkard has done much testing and the fact he planted it in the wall on a few occasions was proberbly driver error in testing, Thompson also stepped into the same car and went much quicker than Vaulkard underlining its not RML thats the factor.


Question on Plato, is his funding from Tesco 99 that allowed him to run at Brands, could we see a Tesco Value car out at Thruxton!

Rob Collard did very well and after a bashing from me last year Jelley appears to be getting stuck in a bit more, I hope he can continue to back Turkington up as he will need it against the motorbase challenge.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Are Dynamics in that much trouble that they needed Pinkney and his funding to run this year?

They certainly needed his funding if they were going to run James Thompson, which was the plan at one stage. I don't know if I would go so far as to say there would be no Team Dynamics without him but he is bringing substantial personal funding with him.

[tensmurf]

Maybe I'm biased in some way but it alway seems like Matt Neal and Gio are always aggressively bumping people out of the way with no repercussions. Their dirty driving styles are maddening. I think a bit of tapping here and there makes the race a little more fun as long as they're very baby taps/accidental, but these guys are obviously out to knock people out of the way to advance.

It's a bit mind boggling how the racing stewards including the ones in F1 seem to just be out of their gourds.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Vaulkard has done much testing and the fact he planted it in the wall on a few occasions was proberbly driver error in testing, Thompson also stepped into the same car and went much quicker than Vaulkard underlining its not RML thats the factor.

But am I right in thinking that Vaulkhard, either Harry or his dad, actually own the Lacetti's, and Tempus are just running them. I know that's what the deal was with Robertshaw, and I think it's the same this year. And if that's the case, it's either a slowish Lacetti on the grid or one less car. And if the can get someone decent in the second car we may see Tempus fighting with Plato.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by tensmurf

Maybe I'm biased in some way but it alway seems like Matt Neal and Gio are always aggressively bumping people out of the way with no repercussions. Their dirty driving styles are maddening. I think a bit of tapping here and there makes the race a little more fun as long as they're very baby taps/accidental, but these guys are obviously out to knock people out of the way to advance.

It's a bit mind boggling how the racing stewards including the ones in F1 seem to just be out of their gourds.

Fabrizio's a very fair driver, he only uses force if he really has to. I like that about him. Neal's just forceful all the time, not a lot of finesse to his driving.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Fabrizio's a very fair driver, he only uses force if he really has to.

What was the urgent necessity that made Gio have to thoroughly push Jelly way off track this weekend?

[Go_For_Pole]

About Plato vs Vaulkard: Having seen all three races, I remember that Vaulkard finished the first two very, very close to Plato. It was the reversed grid on the 3rd race that put one of them on pole and the other in the middle of the pack. Not saying that Vaulkard would have driven such an excellent 3rd race as Plato (and frankly that would be unreasonable expectation for lots of other youngsters of the grid) but in all Vaulkard didn't do that bad.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

About Plato vs Vaulkard: Having seen all three races, I remember that Vaulkard finished the first two very, very close to Plato. It was the reversed grid on the 3rd race that put one of them on pole and the other in the middle of the pack. Not saying that Vaulkard would have driven such an excellent 3rd race as Plato (and frankly that would be unreasonable expectation for lots of other youngsters of the grid) but in all Vaulkard didn't do that bad.

EXACTLY what I think, too. I've also seen Thommo mentioned here, but come on, how can you expect a driver in his second season to be faster than Thompson? Of course he's not at Plato's or Thompson's level, but considering all the factors he showed improvement and he is growing. Were he a bad driver, he'd never have learned, that's why I see some talent in him.
By the way, I've spoken to him and he told me that the accident in Thruxton was his fault, while in Brands they were just testing brake bias and something went wrong, he locked the rear tyres and hit the wall, so nothing to blame on him.
Giovanardi is generally a very correct driver, I've seen him for about 13 years racing in Italy and he was the one who got hit, not the one who hit the others. Sometimes in touring car racing it just happens that you scratch someone or that you go into him unintentionally, like IMO happened to Adam with Plato.

Originally Posted by redshoes

Andrew Jordan is also only in his second season and he is a lot closer to Neal/Giovanardi than Vaulkhard is to Plato.

Here you're talking about a works driver, nothing to do with what we are saying. Here you say that Vaulkhard was too far from Plato, but in the end we're talking about 0.135s difference in qualifying, while Jordan was 0.196s in quali, so what are we talking about?

[touringlegend]

Well I thought Vaulkhard looked improved at Brands compared to 2008. It could be his driving, the newer car, or perhaps the team?

I was just looking at the points standings for this year. So far he's scored 5, all of last season he only scored 2.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Giovanardi is generally a very correct driver, I've seen him for about 13 years racing in Italy and he was the one who got hit, not the one who hit the others. Sometimes in touring car racing it just happens that you scratch someone or that you go into him unintentionally, like IMO happened to Adam with Plato.

Giovanardi is generally a clean driver, but his move on Jelley was not, nor was it unintentional. he'd already got the place, and he just drove Jelley off the road, he could easily have just turned the wheels a bit more, he'd have got the place and Jelley slot in behind him. I just can't believe it went unpenilised.

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Here you're talking about a works driver, nothing to do with what we are saying. Here you say that Vaulkhard was too far from Plato, but in the end we're talking about 0.135s difference in qualifying, while Jordan was 0.196s in quali, so what are we talking about?

Its a fair point raised however the expectation was that Vaulkard would be quicker than Plato on the basis of his testing mileage and feedback from RML,Huff, Thompson and his current team, Plato turns up and beats him in all three races. The argument Vaulkard is only in his second season is also not a fair benefit of the doubt as Adams at motorbase was a match for Collard.

What has been proven is if they can get a top line driver in the second car it will be at the front and could well help Vaulkard further in his progress.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Its a fair point raised however the expectation was that Vaulkard would be quicker than Plato on the basis of his testing mileage and feedback from RML,Huff, Thompson and his current team, Plato turns up and beats him in all three races. The argument Vaulkard is only in his second season is also not a fair benefit of the doubt as Adams at motorbase was a match for Collard.

What has been proven is if they can get a top line driver in the second car it will be at the front and could well help Vaulkard further in his progress.

But with Adam we're talking about Collard, with Vaulkhard we're talking about Plato. TBH, although I believe Harry is going to be a good driver in the future, I never thought he could beat Jason. After all, you're talking about a world class driver against a privateer, so I justify him. I don't think he had such an enormous mileage so that he could beat a driver like Plato. Also, the feedback from RML and Huff was also available for Jason, who was actually driving for them. I don't know if he gave Huff or Menu a call, if ever he needed it, but certainly he had full support from RML who, I repeat, have built that car.
Just to sum up, I think Vaulkhard did well and Plato was great, as usual. Nothing new IMO for Plato, good news for Vaulkhard.