V8 SuperTourers in NZ - 'Car Of Tomorrow'

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

I've spent a bit of time reading this forum from one end to the other and I'm puzzled. This seems such a hate-fest.
Mother used to tell me 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything.' Did anyone else get told this?

When you do some online research about the people behind this new concept what I see is people who have been involved year after year (after year) in New Zealand motorsport and between them certainly know how to win.

There are some valid questions about the car and the series but so many of the posts are thinly veiled personal attacks. WTF?

So far it appears that the ST folk have a clear plan and are ticking boxes towards their first meeting. The consistency of their promotion is to be admired. In a RWC/Election year they've kept their head above the horizon and maintained a simmer of interest.

The fact that there are so many knockers suggests they must be doing something right.

I couldn't agree with you more. I've made the comment in a recent post about "tall poppy syndrome" and I'm pleased to see someone else come to the same conclusion. Now watch the haters come out again!

[promax]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

I've spent a bit of time reading this forum from one end to the other and I'm puzzled. This seems such a hate-fest.
Mother used to tell me 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything.' Did anyone else get told this?

When you do some online research about the people behind this new concept what I see is people who have been involved year after year (after year) in New Zealand motorsport and between them certainly know how to win.

There are some valid questions about the car and the series but so many of the posts are thinly veiled personal attacks. WTF?

So far it appears that the ST folk have a clear plan and are ticking boxes towards their first meeting. The consistency of their promotion is to be admired. In a RWC/Election year they've kept their head above the horizon and maintained a simmer of interest.

The fact that there are so many knockers suggests they must be doing something right.

the hate is from having two separate classes that are basically the same two separate classes with less than 20 cars in each.. competing for the same sponsorship dollar and supporters if everyone just pulled their heads in.. we wouldn't have this bs

[GTRMagic]

Back on track for a minute... interesting to see Here a driver in Mr Goonan looking for backing for the 'endurance' events on the V8ST calendar...

I would imagine the price is a fraction steep relative to costs.. but open to other views..

[GizzFan]

Originally Posted by promax

the hate is from having two separate classes that are basically the same two separate classes with less than 20 cars in each.. competing for the same sponsorship dollar and supporters if everyone just pulled their heads in.. we wouldn't have this bs

OK im a newbie, but just dont understand why your knocking just about the most exciting thing to ever happen in Kiwiland. These cars are gonna be just awesome, our own real answer to the Australian Supercars, come on we should all be celebrating these guys they put their arse on the ground and made it happen and you just seem to want to knock them every time you post.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by promax

the hate is from having two separate classes that are basically the same two separate classes with less than 20 cars in each.. competing for the same sponsorship dollar and supporters if everyone just pulled their heads in.. we wouldn't have this bs

Promax - you have been rather agressive (if inconsistent) in many of your posts so preaching 'everyone pulling their head in' seems disengenuous.

The BNT V8s have certainly been a great class but the format is rather tired.

I remember back to when Gary Pederson and Jandles first lauched the TraNZam Lite concept. Many of the same objections were raised. I also remember that the governing body never seemed terribly supportive of that concept until it proved to be a winner.

The ethos behind that class was always close, cost controlled racing. The first chassis' were priced around $30,000 +/- 5k (depending on who you spoke to)
The class developed and morphed into the greatly more expensive BNT's - which displaced all the old TZ Lites. Overnight they were club cars.
Really, how is this different? It is the nature of competition. Things move on.

As for two classes doing the same thing? What of the multitude of GT1/OSCA/Sport Saloons etc etc type classes all floundering. How is Honda class different from BMW E30?.

This is a failure of the governing body to govern.

Instead the stance is taken that the competitors will vote with their wallets as to what they want to do.

The Motorsport Plan makes interesting reading.
'Towards 2015' (http://www.motorsport.org.nz/assets/...Str-Plan-4.pdf) has certainly been 'dumbed down' from 'Towards 2011'. It seems more pragmatic and a little less idealistic than >2011, probably refleting the economic environment it was updated in compared to when MSNZ was bullish and taking all the credit for 'growing' the sport.
One of the things that >2011 stated as a T1 objective for Saloon cars was to have current shapes on track. Now we semm to care less. BMW class racing as part of a premier series race meeting - SHAME.

Interesting reading from 4.3 - 1.1

CLASS REQUIREMENTS

Championship status may be awarded to a class that MotorSport NZ considers has met the criteria (above) and is additionally in the national interest.
Prior to Championship status application a class shall have competed the previous season as a Sanctioned or challenge Series an should have demonstrated the ability to have at least 15 vehicles contesting 75% of scheduled rounds for the series.

For MotorSport NZ to consider status for a first or subsequent Championship the class must have been able to demonstrate the ability to have at least 15 vehicles contesting 75% of the previous seasons scheduled rounds of theseries.

Unless special circumstances prevail, all Championships shall be contested over a series comprising a maximum of eight (8) and minimum of two (2) meetings.

Very different from the old plan where the criteria was there in black and white. Now its all 'in the nations interest blah blah' which smacks of me and my mates think...
It is also apparent by looking at TRS that you can fail year after year to meet this criteria and still be part of the show. Wallets anyone?

Perhaps the problem is the direction the money flows?

[promax]

i'm sorry GizzFan the cars only cost $180,000 and they're faster than a V8SC, DTM, F1, and the multi coloured Civic down the road the split is a wonderful thing and having low numbers in all our tier one classes (including ST's) is the best thing to ever happen in NZ Motorsort i'm sure we have the V8SC boys and girls shaking in their boots

[promax]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Back on track for a minute... interesting to see Here a driver in Mr Goonan looking for backing for the 'endurance' events on the V8ST calendar...

I would imagine the price is a fraction steep relative to costs.. but open to other views..

from eltongoonan.com..

The Future is BNT New Zealand V8's

The opening round of the BNT New Zealand V8 Championship at Pukekohe Raceway on November 4th/5th 2011 is Elton's target for the coming season.

"I've been lucky to have some great success in Europe and now I'm home, I want to continue that," said Elton from his Hamilton base.

"The overall level of competition and quality of racing in New Zealand has always been high, and the BNT NZ V8's is the pinnacle. The championship is developing ever year and the racecars are great fun to drive.

"This is something that I have to be a part of as a driver. I'm really exited to see things are moving ahead in New Zealand with the V8s. The existing NZV8 cars are great and offer fans a chance to see the cars that they drive everyday being put to the test over the summer months!

"It's exciting and they're real race cars. The changes to the new regulations are going to be great for the racing, from both a driver and a specators point of veiw. It's going to be absolutely sensational and you're going to see a lot of people wanting to be a part of it. With the new formula and look of the series I'm really keen to get involved as my first seasons racing back in NZ'd."


odd?

[GizzFan]

Originally Posted by promax

i'm sorry GizzFan the cars only cost $180,000 and they're faster than a V8SC, DTM, F1, and the multi coloured Civic down the road the split is a wonderful thing and having low numbers in all our tier one classes (including ST's) is the best thing to ever happen in NZ Motorsort i'm sure we have the V8SC boys and girls shaking in their boots

No need to take the ****, I asked Garry Pederson what the cost was, who should know, and he said with Airjacks and painting, 200K if you assemble it yourself. I do know that that is a fraction of what an Aussie Supercar costs so although its a lot of money it sure is cheaper than a 997 Porsche!

I guess you will also want to rubbish Garry's claim that his last NZV8 car cost him $185K, 5 years ago, and consumed money like it was going out of fashion, on R&D and huge engine rebuilding cost every year, but thats what the man said, and I would rather believe somebody like Garry than you.

[promax]

so is 200K the same as $180,000?

funny, i don't actually recalled bring up the cost of a NZV8 or a NZV8 teams budget? btw 200K isn't cheap for a series similar to one that already exist in this country. we've got two sides fighting for the same $$$'s, for the same, drivers/teams, for the same audience... you think that's a good thing?

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Promax - you have been rather agressive (if inconsistent) in many of your posts so preaching 'everyone pulling their head in' seems disengenuous.

The BNT V8s have certainly been a great class but the format is rather tired.

I remember back to when Gary Pederson and Jandles first lauched the TraNZam Lite concept. Many of the same objections were raised. I also remember that the governing body never seemed terribly supportive of that concept until it proved to be a winner.

The ethos behind that class was always close, cost controlled racing. The first chassis' were priced around $30,000 +/- 5k (depending on who you spoke to)
The class developed and morphed into the greatly more expensive BNT's - which displaced all the old TZ Lites. Overnight they were club cars.
Really, how is this different? It is the nature of competition. Things move on.

As for two classes doing the same thing? What of the multitude of GT1/OSCA/Sport Saloons etc etc type classes all floundering. How is Honda class different from BMW E30?.

This is a failure of the governing body to govern.

Instead the stance is taken that the competitors will vote with their wallets as to what they want to do.

The Motorsport Plan makes interesting reading.
'Towards 2015' (http://www.motorsport.org.nz/assets/...Str-Plan-4.pdf) has certainly been 'dumbed down' from 'Towards 2011'. It seems more pragmatic and a little less idealistic than >2011, probably refleting the economic environment it was updated in compared to when MSNZ was bullish and taking all the credit for 'growing' the sport.
One of the things that >2011 stated as a T1 objective for Saloon cars was to have current shapes on track. Now we semm to care less. BMW class racing as part of a premier series race meeting - SHAME.

Interesting reading from 4.3 - 1.1

CLASS REQUIREMENTS

Championship status may be awarded to a class that MotorSport NZ considers has met the criteria (above) and is additionally in the national interest.
Prior to Championship status application a class shall have competed the previous season as a Sanctioned or challenge Series an should have demonstrated the ability to have at least 15 vehicles contesting 75% of scheduled rounds for the series.

For MotorSport NZ to consider status for a first or subsequent Championship the class must have been able to demonstrate the ability to have at least 15 vehicles contesting 75% of the previous seasons scheduled rounds of theseries.

Unless special circumstances prevail, all Championships shall be contested over a series comprising a maximum of eight (8) and minimum of two (2) meetings.

Very different from the old plan where the criteria was there in black and white. Now its all 'in the nations interest blah blah' which smacks of me and my mates think...
It is also apparent by looking at TRS that you can fail year after year to meet this criteria and still be part of the show. Wallets anyone?

Perhaps the problem is the direction the money flows?

Bravo to you, Mr Icarus - couldn't agree more with your sentiments. The fact is that MSNZ/TMC have been running a tired old formula for far too many years, I was writing about the need for new shapes and new engines back in 2008 and they're only just launching now!

I guess the haters here are the ones who have some allegiance to TMC and the current VEEGA group since most posters here are drivers or team owners of some sort.

I personally love the look and sound of the new beasts, I love the fact that they're fast and they've got a great driver lineup for 2012. I will be attending as many of the V8ST events as I am able to get to and I will be bringing as many mates as I can.

I stopped going to the "Tier 1" events about 2 years ago (Hamilton excepted) because not only were the support classes generally quite dull (except the Toyotas), but the main classs, the supremo blue ribbon event had at least 2-3 classes that were faster around pretty much any track. Where was the fun in that?

[promax]

The class developed and morphed into the greatly more expensive BNT's - which displaced all the old TZ Lites. Overnight they were club cars.
Really, how is this different? It is the nature of competition. Things move on.


what's different? the Tranzam Lights class developed and morphed into the greatly more expensive BNT's no one decided to take their new toy and start a whole new series

[EZY PEEL]

I found this this morning on this link:

http://www.nzracer.com/newsletter.html?id=133

There is an add for "Drive Avaliable" in SuperTourer car #46 (JMR).




I wonder what a "suitable budget" might be?

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by EZY PEEL

I found this this morning on this link:

http://www.nzracer.com/newsletter.html?id=133

There is an add for "Drive Avaliable" in SuperTourer car #46 (JMR).




I wonder what a "suitable budget" might be?

Errr, $200k??

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

GT1/OSCA/Sport Saloons etc etc type classes all floundering. How is Honda class different from BMW E30?.

Hmmm I'm going to say you are wrong there....
It's exactly those classes which are going well and always have good numbers.
Those along with historic racing are the only things growing in NZ.
Why? because they are made up of the type of cars people want to see and drive.
I have been to quite a few Tier one meets. And the best events I have been to lately have been the club ones running sports sedans and the historics.

But that's a little off topic.

Back to the ST's. Have we ascertained what the support classes are yet?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by promax

so is 200K the same as $180,000?

funny, i don't actually recalled bring up the cost of a NZV8 or a NZV8 teams budget? btw 200K isn't cheap for a series similar to one that already exist in this country. we've got two sides fighting for the same $$$'s, for the same, drivers/teams, for the same audience... you think that's a good thing?

With the trigger already pulled, it's too late now for any of that. Whether good or bad it's happening.

Both series I think have a list of positives you can point to and I've got no issues with either series. If the opportunity for a drive in either series happened in the future, I'd take it in either series.

I think it's one of those deals now where the free market is going to have to work it all out. One might win, one might lose, both might win, both might lose. It will all be worked out in due course.

[promax]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

With the trigger already pulled, it's too late now for any of that. Whether good or bad it's happening.

Both series I think have a list of positives you can point to and I've got no issues with either series. If the opportunity for a drive in either series happened in the future, I'd take it in either series.

I think it's one of those deals now where the free market is going to have to work it all out. One might win, one might lose, both might win, both might lose. It will all be worked out in due course.

true mountainstar

[promax]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Hmmm I'm going to say you are wrong there....
It's exactly those classes which are going well and always have good numbers.
Those along with historic racing are the only things growing in NZ.
Why? because they are made up of the type of cars people want to see and drive.
I have been to quite a few Tier one meets. And the best events I have been to lately have been the club ones running sports sedans and the historics.

But that's a little off topic.

Back to the ST's. Have we ascertained what the support classes are yet?

the Central Muscle Cars will running back to back meetings in February for the BNTV8s and then the STs. Honda Cup and V8 Challenge Cup are the others.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Hmmm I'm going to say you are wrong there....
It's exactly those classes which are going well and always have good numbers.
Those along with historic racing are the only things growing in NZ.
Why? because they are made up of the type of cars people want to see and drive.
I have been to quite a few Tier one meets. And the best events I have been to lately have been the club ones running sports sedans and the historics.

But that's a little off topic.

Back to the ST's. Have we ascertained what the support classes are yet?

Another reason they are popular is that they are run by people who are in motorsport for the love of it, rather than people pushing their own political agendas....

[Mr Revhead]

I don't know about that... I have seen plenty of politics in all classes of motorsport.

[harcey]

Originally Posted by StraightLine

Mark interesting reading back through some of your post's

Wasn't it you and the other NZV8 directors that chose to split the V8 class up and run a break away series?

Interesting how you quote that
"the traditional Summer Series is unsustainable in this economic climate"

How will your new ST series be any more sustainable in this economic climate running in months that traditionally have bad weather?

I would have thought splitting the sport up in this economy was only detrimental to motorsport!

It's been asked before what support classes have you got lined up for each event?

I note that round 3 Manfeild April 28/29 is the weekend after the biggest motorsport event in NZ, V8 Supercars in Hamilton. Why would you do that?

Round 5 Taupo August 11/12 It was snowing in Taupo in the same week this year, if it's not snowing it will be guaranteed to be cold horrible weather. How do you expect any sort of crowd to turn up?

ST have done a great job around promoting the the new series on TV3 and with the media. Awesome cars and a driver lineup that has created some good media particularly with Greg Murphy involved! How could you go wrong?

My question to you Mark (amongst the others) is how do you make this work financially?

From what I understand TV production cost for each event to be around 150k

Circuit hire, marketing, event management infrastructure to run each event is between 75k to 100k

Staff wages & operating cost's between 400k and 500k

These are only but a few of the costs that anyone can see

My rough calculation that it's going to take some 2 to 2.5 million dollars to run your new series! With no real sponsors announced and less than a month to Christmas. How is this sustainable in this economic climate?
Or are all the rich guys in the series going to toss money in the pot to make it run?

How ever I look at this it can't be good for motorsport!

interesting debate;
why a major series would be run over the winter months in NZ is beyond me,
anyone out there remember the televised winter f/ford series at manfeild and the televised winter TZ lites series at taupo,and the televised F/ford festival at taupo during the nineties-all organised by chris Aboott unless im mistaken,
i was involved in all 3 series and they all failed.
you can have as much TV as you like but circuits etc need CASH to survive and operate and i cant see Hampton downs being in a financial position to absorb the cost's in having their events as part of the series.

i gotta agree that TMC are their own worst enemies,but at least they are somewhat under the motorsport nz umbrella .

What is going to happen with the V8ST series when the head guys start to fall out over direction/cost/race formats etc.
nobody can convince me that messrs Petch/pederson/anderson/radisich/abbott/mcintyre etc are going to live happily ever after in this series.
and thats without Murf having any issues and sounding off !!!
They dont seem to have anybody higher up to step in an say 'whoa lads, lets sort this all out".

Mind you,MNZ haven't really fronted with the NZV8 split debacle yet either.

Biggest loser will be first the tracks who wont make the gate that they need,then competitors who aren't at the front and get no coverage,
then support classes racing in the cold in front of moderate crowds being scheduled when suits the V8ST organiser's.The novelty soon wears off believe me.

ultimately motorsport as a whole suffers.
Your average enthusiast and weekend spectator dont know the politics and the forums etc ,they just like their V8's or muscle cars or whatever.

And lets not forget that the sport is partly in a financial slump,
anyone had a good look at mylaps and checked out Karting--speedway--club racing etc.fields in general are down across the board at present.

a couple of things you can bet on though;

V8ST are going to look and sound great with top drivers (in the front half anyway).
and NZV8 are going to re vitalise in 12 or so months with a bit more affordable but pretty much same looking cars.

and in 5 years time MNZ will still be running motorsport in this country.

[RogerH]

The issues raised in the SuperTourers and NZV8 threads are indicative of dysfunctional motor sport in NZ.

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs, or which car is superior or inferior, the very fact that it has generated divided loyalties from spectators, drivers, entrants and sponsors is detrimental to the sport.

The involvement of MSNZ is unfortunate as they appear to have forgotten that their reason for existence is to promote motor sport in general in NZ through an administrative and regulatory process. MSNZ's financial and commercial interests with TMC, who run Tier 1 and support NZV8s, is something that should not have happened - MSNZ should restrict their activities to administration and regulation.

Commercial involvements that favour one branch of motor sport to another create conflicts of interest for the governing body and must be verging on being unconstitutional. If this was sorted it may go a long way to getting some sanity back into the current situation.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by RogerH

The issues raised in the SuperTourers and NZV8 threads are indicative of dysfunctional motor sport in NZ.

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs, or which car is superior or inferior, the very fact that it has generated divided loyalties from spectators, drivers, entrants and sponsors is detrimental to the sport.

The involvement of MSNZ is unfortunate as they appear to have forgotten that their reason for existence is to promote motor sport in general in NZ through an administrative and regulatory process. MSNZ's financial and commercial interests with TMC, who run Tier 1 and support NZV8s, is something that should not have happened - MSNZ should restrict their activities to administration and regulation.

Commercial involvements that favour one branch of motor sport to another create conflicts of interest for the governing body and must be verging on being unconstitutional. If this was sorted it may go a long way to getting some sanity back into the current situation.

Well said, that man!

[Icarus_nz]

Promax - I apolagise if you thought that I was suggesting that you may end up being Nostradamus or a village idiot. Thus far I am doing my level best NOT to engage in name calling. My comments were meant in a general sense, not a personal one.

What is interesting with the ST format is exactly the fact that a group of strong minded competitors have decided that that want to go in their own direction.
What is obvious is that they have a clear plan and are progressing with that plan.

Their plan will be factoring in what they see as the shortfalls within the existing model - in class format, administration etc

Right or wrong they are backing themselves.

Its no grand secret that this has been coming for a while now. In the face of this challenge the existing package has a choice - capitulate or fight.

Motor-racing is facing challenging times and yet, as pointed out already, club and historic racing is very strong.

Class racing, esp at the top end has its own challenges. Most competitors do not enjoy the experience of stepping up to a higher level.

BNT V8's should be facing an influx at present. Previously the top 5 was locked out and to achieve a top 10 result in a scratch race was quite an achievement. Now the field is more open as even the front runners who have carried over from last year all can show pace but are all inconsistent.

Money is always a challenge but the reality of the sport is that most of the field runs on family money anyway. The commitment and sacrifices they make mean the administration should treat them a lot better than they have. Treating the people who put on the show as a cash cow is self destructive.

[Ugy]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

To me who promax is or what he does is not relevant. We are here to debate ideas and issues, not our personal lives.

If there is some criticism, it might be well founded and worth considering and if you've got an issue with it, debate it.

correct....but it does seem that if your opinion is the wrong one your a negative r sol.

My opinion is that in the current economic position having two V8 racing series in NZ is not a good thing and might/will be the end. Clone car racing holds no interest for me at all no matter how fast they are, rather watch the GT's racing any day. I'm a Ford fan but gotta love that Chester's Holden (must be getting old)

[Woolley]

Gee, I love Kiwis, until they find the internet forum...

I really can't be bothered going back deleting everything, but a few posts will go and there might be a (polite) warning or two, otherwise please just stick to the topic and if you don't like something - report it. All that offensiveness and accusation and not a single reported post. Enough, please.