Come back to CCWS Honda and Toyota!!!!!!!!!!

[mabs_nsx]

I never watched the CCWS until late in 2002. I didn't really know CCWS existed and I shore didn't know it was on TV because all the races are shown Very late Monday or Very early Tuesday in Australia exept for the Gold Coast indy which is shown live. I have always followed Honda in all the racing that they are in that I am able to watch. I remember watching my first race the Honda indy 300 in 2002. Not that it was much of a race. They drove snail pace for something like 70 laps. From that race I wanted to start following the series. The new season in 2003 had just started and I relised Honda and Toyota were gone and all that was left was Ford. So I stoped watching it for a while. But soon started waching again as it was just to good not to watch.

What I want to know is why did Honda and Toyota leave the CCWS.

Please come back Honda and Toyota!!!!!!!!!!

[Jordi]

There are a number of reasons, namely the exposure of the Indy 500 to teams and sponsors, the inability of CART at the time to decide which engines would be used, and also the pop-off valve controversy that sparked at Detroit in 2001 if I recall correctly. It went along the lines that CART changed the rules regarding the pop-off valve and Toyota had known about it and had tested new valves before the rule was enforced, which of course left Honda and Ford none too pleased.

Honda and Toyota officially cited "a loss of confidence in the way CART has been run", to leave the series.

[Tony Clifton]

Honda and Toyota left the CCWS due to the extremely poor management and public relations that CCWS management had at the time.

CCWS officials decided to penalize Honda at the Detroit GP by essentially cutting Honda's boost by adding a spacer under the blow off valve.

CCWS (also known as CART at the time), was wavering back and forth over types of engine formulas. Should they stay as turbo V8's or go with a kind of IRL spec engine naturally aspired V8's that would require huge amounts of R&D to develop.

After those 2 missteps along with about 2 dozen other bad management decisions, Honda and Toyota decided to pull the plug and switch over to the IRL.

I was in Long Beach this weekend for the LBGP. While the race and atmosphere were very good, compared with the era I use to go (1995 through 1999) it is just not the same.

With alot of luck and work the CCWS can rebuild.

Hope that helps.

[Kicking-back]

I don't want them back.

A spec-engine which needs no development keeps everyone on an equal footing, avoids ridiculous expense and it means the series is not beholden to the whims of manufacturers.

[BootsOntheSide]

Precisely KB. Buying Cosworth was a very shrewd move, and should guarantee them close and cheap racing. If Honda and Toyota (and other big-investment amnufacturers) aren't in ChampCars or IRL, their top teams' drivers will look elsewhere, perhaps for lower pay, so some could come to ChampCars anyway.

The subject of what went wrong in CART has been done to death, but Joe Heitzler's attemtps at placating all 3 engine manufacturers was utterly ham-fisted and misguided - essentially he folded to Toyota's self-centreed requests, and it's no surprise that Honda lost their patience and left.

[gttouring]

i heard the rumor on these boards as well as else where.
IF the Long Beach Gp goes off CC books and into the IRL hands, well why would toyota still stay out of their own race...?
but i heard that Toyota may leave the IRL as it is not re upping the contract in 06 (?)
and they may come to CC with a similar engine or infact a badged Cosworth! (a source revealed this was an option to maintain good footing in the series and keep costs down.
the idea is that TRD and Cosworth tech. are in the same SoCal vicinity and makes this deal easy...
now how would Toyota stay out of the cosworth engine and not copy it? well the old Toyota Champ car motor was a rocket after the sorted reliability issues.
an engine freeze may be the only option for Champcar if another manufacturer comes in-or specified and approved components as the Grand-am does in the DP class. and if toyota come back well the longbeach GP is as good as saved for Champcar.

[Snrub]

Toyota was probably gone unless CC gave them exactly what they wanted. Honda may not have left if they hadn't been jerked around on the pop-off valve and new engines specs. Honda was miffed that CC wouldn't respect all the money and effort they'd put into the series. Toyota wanted to move to IRL compatable engines while Honda and Ford wanted to move to smaller displacement turbocharged engines. Also, Honda had produced competitive engines for a sustained period. In my mind this was an indication of their support of the series. Toyota couldn't be bothered to be serious until ~2000-2001. (in 2001 they spent $200M on Champ Car!) Ford on the other hand may not have produced the best engines, but they were obviously committed. Even when the engine specs had been changed to be IRL compatable, Ford had a engine built which later was famously introduced in the IRL as a Chevy. Then they stayed with the old spec. In other words Ford was jerked around and still stayed.

Pros of engine manufacturers:
1. Money in the series. Promotion, advertising, teams, etc.

Cons of engine manufacturers:
1. Demands of control.
2. Can pull plug and leave financial vacume.
3. Favortism amoung teams. Not everyone runs the same equipment or gets the same financial deals. Leads to polarized teams. At the moment CC has that situation with the haves and have nots, but as it gets stronger, the difference between the top and bottom (or at least middle) should decrease.

As for Toyota in CC because of them potentially leaving the IRL, I wouldn't hold my breath on that. Toyota is a very dangerous factor in retaining Long Beach. I read something where the LB officials have said that they will base their decision on what their prime sponsor, Toyota, wants to do. Dangerous words. The post race press conference made me really nervous. The three drivers went on in length about why the LBGP should remain with CC. It sounds to me like things are getting serious when the drivers are having to be political activists.

[BootsOntheSide]

Just to clarify, Toyota don't sponsor Long Beach, a group of Toyota dealers in California do. Toyota going to the IRL didn't lead to the race looking to switch, despite predictions to the contrary.

[macdaddy]

The LBGPA mentioned that ChampCar would have to fill the gaps in the early schedule if they want to return. They don't seem to like the fact that they're having to market a series whose drivers are still TBA, and they don't like the long gap between themselves and the next event.

It will be several months before any decision is made, one way or the other.

[racefanatic]

Originally Posted by mabs_nsx

I remember watching my first race the Honda indy 300 in 2002. Not that it was much of a race. They drove snail pace for something like 70 laps. From that race I wanted to start following the series.

You're the first person I've ever heard that has said something good about that race.

At this point, I have to agree with Kicking-back. It would be ashame to have Honda and Toyota controlling everything again, and I would like to think that the current CC teams aren't totally money-driven.

[Muzza]

Dear Fellows,


A friend of mine is a Marketing VP for Toyota USA. This person does not work directly with racing-related promotions nor with the TRD (Toyota Racing Development) but knows many people that do.

According to this source (who is quite often spot-on):

- the likelihood of Toyota continuing its involvement with the IRL past 2005 is small (when I asked about "a percentage" this person replied "less than 50% and declining");

- the likelihood of Toyota continuing its involvement with the IRL past 2006 is very small ("10%");

- the likelihood of Toyota re-joining the Champ Car bandwagon is "zero" for the foreseeable future.


Muzza

[Liz]

Muzza, that is about what I heard too (from Gordon Kirby on the audio round table, and from another person who is generally reliable and not part of Toyota). Toyota is going deep into F1 and I think into truck racing in NA$CAR, and they probably don't want to spread themselves too thin in that regard. I've also heard something about Honda leaving Another Series in 2006, but that is a single source rumour and I will wait and see on that.

I'd like to have Scott Dixon back when his current team folds. I've always liked him.

[mountainstar]

I like the current formula with one engine just because you don't have to listen to all the bickering that goes on between manufacturers. And even if honda or toyota wanted to come back there is no guarantee they are even wanted by champcar.

[Muzza]

Originally Posted by Liz

Muzza, that is about what I heard too (from Gordon Kirby on the audio round table, and from another person who is generally reliable and not part of Toyota). Toyota is going deep into F1 and I think into truck racing in NA$CAR, and they probably don't want to spread themselves too thin in that regard. I've also heard something about Honda leaving Another Series in 2006, but that is a single source rumour and I will wait and see on that.

I'd like to have Scott Dixon back when his current team folds. I've always liked him.

Hello, Liz,


Good to hear from you. I had an interesting breakfast today and lots of things were discussed, including Dixon.

As you may be aware, Ganassi has been transferring personnel from his IRL team to his NASCAR and GrandAm settings. Then I heard today (and I even discussed this by phone with another Ten Tenthers as well) that Dixon has been given signs by Chip that he (Dixon) is free to look for another job in 2006 if he wants to drive single-seaters...


Muzza

[mitchie]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

I don't want them back.

A spec-engine which needs no development keeps everyone on an equal footing, avoids ridiculous expense and it means the series is not beholden to the whims of manufacturers.

Bingo.

Having enigne manufacturer involvement may seem all well and rosey on the surface, but it is like a deck of cards. Teams are being propped up by engine manufacturers, so when the engine manufacturers go, the teams go. When the teams go, the series is in trouble, one thing leads to another and...

We saw it with Champ Car in 2002-2003 and we will see it again with the IRL in the coming years

[Snrub]

It stands to reason that head office could hold some influence over the dealer's sponsorship of the LBGP and it further stands to reason that the dealers would prefer to have Toyota branded vehicles in the field.

Muzza, how certain are you on those Ganassi details? If Ganassi is planning to bail on the IRL, any idea why he'd add a 3rd car for this year?

I don't think it would be horrible if another manufacturer came in and simply branded the Cosworths the way Ford is currently doing.

[mabs_nsx]

Why can't Honda and Toyoya be in both IRL and CCWS?
Is there any chance we will ever see Honda and Toyoya return to CCWS?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

The LBGPA mentioned that ChampCar would have to fill the gaps in the early schedule if they want to return. They don't seem to like the fact that they're having to market a series whose drivers are still TBA, and they don't like the long gap between themselves and the next event.

It will be several months before any decision is made, one way or the other.

45-60 days...maybe sooner...LBGP wants to make plans for next year...they won't stretch this out...that is from the LBGP guy, as quoted in today's Indy Star...

[Muzza]

Originally Posted by Snrub

[...]

Muzza, how certain are you on those Ganassi details? If Ganassi is planning to bail on the IRL, any idea why he'd add a 3rd car for this year?

[...]

Hello, Snrub,

Good question. No one can be certain of anything, and things can and do change with time, but the indicators and rumours are strong.

Partially lured by France, Ganassi has been moving more and more resources from the IRL operation to his GrandAm branch; this has been happening for a while. In parallel, Target is questioning what sort of return does the IRL bring (I understand that the report prepared by Ganassi at the end of the season was particularly concerned on stressing this point, aiming to anticipate Target's reaction). Additionally, I am (by no means) the only person that has heard (and from different sources) that Ganassi's admiration for Tony George is on an all-time low (ironically, it was Ganassi's support to George that stopped Penske short of managing a coup d'êtat last year, ousting TG). Ganassi's shift of priorities - from CART to NASCAR - are a yardstick of what happened with motorsports in the United States since the mid-1990s. And on his list of priorities the IRL budget is not on the top drawer.

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

45-60 days...maybe sooner...LBGP wants to make plans for next year...they won't stretch this out...that is from the LBGP guy, as quoted in today's Indy Star...

Hello, Tim!

How are you?

Curiously, I heard something very different from a "Golden Member" of the LBGPA this morning. According to him the LBGPA is not going to decide anything before the end of the Summer. He said that the LBGPA is in a very enviable position of having two series bidding for the race, and that the longer they "think about it" the better (as a fellow Ten Tenther put in a phone call with me today "instead of having the promoters paying a series to host a race, now there are two series willing to pay substantial amounts of money for a promoter to run the event"). Also, delaying a decision allows the LBGPA organization - and Dover - to have a more solid analysis on which one, Champ Cars or IRL, is going to be more feasible in a long term (assuming both will be around the next year).

As it stands today:

1.) It is more likely that the IRL, and not Champ Cars, would race in Long Beach next year. My personal bet is 70% IRL, 30% Champ Car.

2.) Tony George is much more interested in grabbing Long Beach than Kalkhoven and associates to keep it. Champ Car has purposedly adopted a non-chalant attitude about it; this is its strategy ("ok, that's fine if the LBGPA wants to race with IRL; we have plenty of cities willing to work with us"). The moves will be similar to the one adopted in the negotiations with Laguna Seca and San Jose (in which, I admit, I was one of those that did not believe that Champ Car was talking seriously about a race in San Jose).

3.) According to my source the LBGPA wants to continue to host the race in the second weekend of April (I have heard this forever, rumours stating otherwise seem to be wide off the mark) but, indeed, they don't want to be the series opener anymore. If Long Beach stays with Champ Car for 2006 I suspect Monterrey will move up the calendar to March. As I heard, "it is easier to disguise last-minute deals in a race in Mexico than under anyone's nose in Long Beach".

Cheers,


Muzza

[D.R.T.]

Imagine if everyone could swallow their pride and we could run both championships at Long Beach.

Yeah I know, but it was a good dream.

[Tim Northcutt]

Hi, Muzza....

Indy Star reporter Steve Ballard quoted Jim Michaelian, the President & CEO of LBGPA:

"We'll have something in the next 45 to 60 days, probably earlier, because we all need to start making plans for 2006 (exact quote)."

It is interesting that you are hearing otherwise, because, quite frankly, your scenario makes a lot of sense....why not hold out, let the bidding price go up, evaluate both Series to see which one makes the most business sense, then announce the choice...

[EGG]

I never watched the CCWS until late in 2002. I didn't really know CCWS existed and I shore didn't know it was on TV because all the races are shown Very late Monday or Very early Tuesday in Australia exept for the Gold Coast indy which is shown live.

Champcar/Indycar used to be shown on Saturday afternoons on ten in the late 90's. At least up until about 1998, that was about when I stopped watching for a few years.

[Snrub]

Muzza, why exactly is Ganassi annoyed with TG? Why did Penske try to work on a coup d'êtat? Last year it seemed like he was working for TG when negotiating with the CC owners. Was he really trying to get them to merge with the IRL owners in a CART #2 type scenerio?

I guess the LBGP people were more concerned with the sketchy grid than I thought they would be. Any idea what kind of payment figures are being discussed to race in LB?

[jjspierx]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Imagine if everyone could swallow their pride and we could run both championships at Long Beach.

Yeah I know, but it was a good dream.

Its not a matter of swallowing pride, its a matter of that not realling being feasible. Keep in mind they have to shutdown a huge area of Long-Beach for nearly a week to run these events. It costs millions of dollars and 1000's of hours of labor from a LOT of people. If more than one series were to race there it would be too disruptive to the city and cost too much money for the return that they would make. I doubt many people would goto BOTH races.

Or maybe you meant they should both run there at the same time? If so, that would be dangerous...there'd be fights breaking out everywhere. My money'd be on Gentilozzi.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by jjspierx

Or maybe you meant they should both run there at the same time? :

Yep thats exactly what I was getting at, both on the Sunday.