'Suzuki SC100' Special Saloon - help with history please!!

[Alan Morgan]

I honestly can't remember the car using Ralt suspension at either end ; what puzzles me is that I should be able to remember if it did , having used RT1 suspension all round on my own car . I know that one end , probably the front , had four stud fixing wheels , whereas the other had centre fixings . All Ralts had centre fixing wheels ; the trademark of Derek Bennett's Chevrons was their parallelogram twin link lower rear suspension wishbone , which he used to obviate the possibility of rear-end bump steer.

I built Cirrus 004 in about six months in the winter of 77/78. It had March uprights and wheels at the front end (with centre lock fixing) and Chevron B15 rear uprights (with four-stud wheel fixing), and lower wishbones at the rear. The front wishbones etc were made by myself and my father, as was the monocoque chassis, and other rear suspension parts. The nose and cockpit surround were Ralt. When I worked for Ralt, Ron Tauranac asked if he could measure some parts of the car up for things he was planning for the RT3 - I learned a hell of a lot from him, and I was a bit surprised that he thought he might learn something from my homebrewed special.

The "trademark" parallel rear links were actually seen on many cars besides Chevrons. Derek Bennett used lower rear wishbones for a long time before parallel links.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Mike Holmes

Wasn't the Ben Bowlby car featured on a TV documentary? I seem to remember seeing a program on it?

Yes, shown on Channel 4- part of 'Equinox' which was their main science documentary series in the late 80's/90's

http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/452821

http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/1303319/

[col rooney]

Yes the candy car was david hall imp im not sure if candy ever drove it on the road but david drove it to mondello 1 day as his trailer was being used by someone else ,he did have a ford engined imp i will try and post a picture

col

[col rooney]

[Slartibartfast]

Col, when I saw the car being driven on the road for 'testing', it was still owned by Candy, but it was one of the mechanics who was driving it. It was close enough that when it was started up, I could hear it's open exhaust clearly. Clive, SuperVee was never a class raced here in an Irish championship. So I suspect the expertise with the twin cam and ixexpensive parts was the reason this engine was the most popular. There may have been regulations (I can't remember) that didn't allow water cooling, but I do remember that 4 valve engines such as the Toyota twin cam and Ford BDA variations were not allowed. This is despite the fact that we had a long lost, and mourned, formula atlantic series. So 1600cc BDA engines would have been about the place. The twin cam was far less expensive in most respects, and I imagine that also contributed to the decision.

[big andy]

heres some photos of the suspension is it 803b?

[ATTACH][ATTACH]



heres the the two other sc100 that race in the n/w sports saloons the yellow one is the b/b car


the red one?

[driftwood]

the wheels on black car are March
the front rocker looks Ralt RT3 in style but march used similar design- need to see more of it or some dims there is wide narrow track 803 wishbone a si found out when i once sold some to a guy
remove wheels take foto of uprights then i can tell you for sure
march and ralt wheels use the same pcd drive pegs so wheels are interswapable

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Col, when I saw the car being driven on the road for 'testing', it was still owned by Candy, but it was one of the mechanics who was driving it. It was close enough that when it was started up, I could hear it's open exhaust clearly. Clive, SuperVee was never a class raced here in an Irish championship. So I suspect the expertise with the twin cam and ixexpensive parts was the reason this engine was the most popular. There may have been regulations (I can't remember) that didn't allow water cooling, but I do remember that 4 valve engines such as the Toyota twin cam and Ford BDA variations were not allowed. This is despite the fact that we had a long lost, and mourned, formula atlantic series. So 1600cc BDA engines would have been about the place. The twin cam was far less expensive in most respects, and I imagine that also contributed to the decision.

Testing on the public roads was not uncommon in Ireland back then at all. Here's my Irish GT-spec Modsports MG Midget after I'd finished a 'session' on Ballyroan Road in South Dublin - coincidentally FF2000 racer Tommy Cunneely is driving by in one of his trucks in the background.

By the way, Richard Baird used to live around the corner from me back then and at the time raced his Exide Stiletto. I'll post a picture of it in a minute.

[davyboy]

Richard Baird's Stiletto.

[Motormouth]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

Surely he couldn't have taken it around on a public road ; bejasus , that would have been illegal , and whatever would the Garda have made of that ?

It appeared in various colours ( Captain America , Marlboro Ireland ) , and was a Davrian fibreglass car . It followed on from the original John Homewood car , but used a Hewland gearbox .

The Irish GT rules did indeed change to 1600 cc eight valve motors , which at a stroke wiped out many of the existing competitors . A guy called George Crozier had a mid-engined Metro ( chassis by John Maguire ? ) with a 1600 Ford twin cam . They didn't suss it , but the obvious motor to use was the contempory water-cooled SuperVee motor ; lighter than the Ford , and more readily available even then .

If this particular car did ever use a Lotus TC , it must surely have been turned around and made mid-engined . Certainly , David Hall retained his 1220 cc Carter engine and Hewland 'box for use in his Suzuki .

Regards

Clive

Great Thread!
I have what is believed to be the ex Hall/Candy car or "The Hallspeed Imp" as it was affectionately known in Irish Racing circles. I spoke to David recently and he was incredibly helpful. Hall sold it to Candy who raced it for a few years in Marlboro colours and then had trouble selling it, so Hall brought it to John Homewood, who sold it for them. Hall then didn't race for a few years and came back with the Blue Imp, pictured above, and then the Suzuki. The blue Imp car was subsequently completely destroyed in a garage fire in Rathmines. David also said that the last time he heard of his original Davrian Imp, some guy in the Uk had it and had been driving it on the road. The guy I bought the car from (who, incidently Col Rooney kindly introduced me to) told me he had driven it on the road a few times on Davrian number plates!!
The car was pretty much unbeatable in the Mod Saloon class at Mondello but was long gone by the introduction of 1600cc GTs in 1983. (In comparative terms, it had the lap record at Mondello in 76/77 at 63.0 when the FF1600 record was 62.2)
Whilst talking to David, who was incredibly helpful, he mentioned that his Suzuki was still around in the UK. I think he said he thought it was in the midlands (but that might be in my head!)

[Motormouth]

Here's a pic of Hall at Shell corner in Mondello back in the day!
I have pics of the Suzuki at the Phoenix Park, I'll try to dig them out......

[col rooney]

Im not sure that your imp Leo is the x dave hall car as the diagonal is the wrong way around if im right from pictures i have looked at and if it is well i will kick myself up the rear end for selling it to peter who you bought it from and yes peter had a davrian mk6 or 7 and use to put the number plates on the imp and drive it to work and car shows and this is only around 4 years ago

col

[Motormouth]

Ah, well. Probably the closest I'll get to what was my dream car as a kid. (Not to say I won't keep looking though.....)

[Clive Brown]

When the Irish GT rules got changed , the powers-that-be were only too aware of what would happen if ex-Atlantic BDAs were unleashed upon the series . Unfortunately , they didn't think quite hard enough , because by that time , the venerable Lotus Twin Cam of either 1558 or 1594 cc was already on its way to becoming a valuable Historical Artefact , and thus the white trash of the English Historic Racing jet set was already inflating the price of the few good ones that were still about in order to put them in their Chevron B6/B8s , and other period sportscars .

I am aware that Supervee was not a native Irish formula , but in Europe ( take the ferry to to Holyhead , and then drive in a broadly east south-easterly direction ) , it used the SOHC 8v 1600cc water-cooled in-line four , and was at that time dying the death , so that good motors were both cheaply and freely available . Even better , as the contemporary motor of choice in F3 then was the 2.0 SOHC VW , there were loads of good serviceable race parts available .

I don't understand Slartibartfast's comment about the Toyota twin cam . The only commonly-available Toyota TC at the time was the 8v twin cam that had preceded the VW as the engine of choice in F3 , but as that was a two litre motor , it would have required extensive modifications to have reduced it to 1600 cc . The only 1600 Toyota 8v TC motors that I can recall were those used in BTCC Toyota Celicas , but there can't have been too many of those . The Toyota motors used later on in Chris Hodgett's double BTCC title-winning Toyota Corollas had 16 valves , and were of an entirely different design . I seem to recall that these were Arden-prepared engines anyway , so they might not even have been genuine 1600s .

Ah , Toyota .... from the same people that brought you Pearl Harbour .

[col rooney]

Its not going to be easy to find halls old car as a lot of these davrian imps have been crashed and pulled apart for the bits as imp bits are so expensive

Also yes richard baird is still around my dad keeps in touch with him

has anyone got any picture of pat mannion

col

[Clive Brown]

Col

You wouldn't be Dan Rooney's boy by any chance , would you ?

With reference to Pat Mannion ; now , there was a man ! I think he started out in Anglias , but then progressed to Imps . At least one tin-bodied car , then after that I think Brian Cutting's first Maguire car .

He had a mid-engined car using an upright mid-engined Imp motor with a Hewland box built for him , but that was an overweight , ill-handling dog , and he replaced it maybe with BC's second Maguire , but for certain , some time later with one of the Stilettos that Bert Ray built , the first being for former ex-Davrian Modsports standout Bob Jarvis ; it might even have been Bob's car . Regretably , these cars were illegally low , but surprise , surprise , the Scrutineers never did anything about it .

Pat was no great technical man , but could he ever drive the nuts off a car ! In my opinion , his finest outing was in qualifying on one of the rare outings for the Special Saloons around the Brands Grand Prix circuit , before it was ruined so that the so-called Superstars felt safe driving around it . On that day , he was untouchable .

Col , to get a better response to your request for info. on Pat Mannion , you might be better off posting on the dedicated 'Super Saloons and Special Saloons' thread .

[big andy]

is this the pat mannion overweight , ill-handling dog imp

[col rooney]

I dont think mannion ever owned that car its all word of mouth as pat cant recall his car having a split body like this 1 ,how can you say its over weight and handles bad have you driven it , car in picture handles like a dream

col

[col rooney]

Yes Clive i am dan,s eldest son

sorry andy it looks like we have hijacked you thread all i know about your sc100 is that i raced against it at lydden and it was quick but had a lot of problems but as far as i know Brian got it sorted and then put it up forsale

col

[big andy]

col

there can not be to many mid engined 1 lt imps built for pat mannion

[col rooney]

True ,i will try and get pictures and send them to pat it may jog his mind and will let you know what he says

col

[Clive Brown]

I have a feeling that the mid-engined car that Pat had that didn't work had a lift-off body , slab sided , with just the doors being separate panels . As a race engineer , I hated this configuration , because if something ever went wrong after the car had set off on its warm-up lap , you were pretty well banjaxed trying to do anything about it because of the difficulty in betting the damn body off !

This looks to be much more like the later Ray Stiletto ; if you have a front 3/4 view with the body on I could probably tell straight off . Top of the front wheel arches virtually level with the top of the bonnet !

Regards

Clive

P.S. : Generally , a stop watch will tell you if a car works or not !

[col rooney]

Yes the car in picture has the wheel flat with the top of bonnet it laps lydden quick and looks like its on rails will ask my mate what times he has done in it,the car is up for sale if anyone is interested contact me and i will put you intouch with the owner

col

[big andy]

[stealth1]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

When the Irish GT rules got changed , the powers-that-be were only too aware of what would happen if ex-Atlantic BDAs were unleashed upon the series . Unfortunately , they didn't think quite hard enough , because by that time , the venerable Lotus Twin Cam of either 1558 or 1594 cc was already on its way to becoming a valuable Historical Artefact , and thus the white trash of the English Historic Racing jet set was already inflating the price of the few good ones that were still about in order to put them in their Chevron B6/B8s , and other period sportscars .

I am aware that Supervee was not a native Irish formula , but in Europe ( take the ferry to to Holyhead , and then drive in a broadly east south-easterly direction ) , it used the SOHC 8v 1600cc water-cooled in-line four , and was at that time dying the death , so that good motors were both cheaply and freely available . Even better , as the contemporary motor of choice in F3 then was the 2.0 SOHC VW , there were loads of good serviceable race parts available.

Spot on about the BDA, though the Twin Cam was'nt necessarily the engine in mind either. At that time Alan Sherwood had got the crossflow sorted and that engine had been used by many in clubmans here, so it was a known quantity. AFAIK Morgan Dempsey was the only one to use the Twink. I dont think anyone knew enough about the SuperVee engine then .. good in theory but would have been a big gamble to take in the face of the known item.