HANS Device

[ss_collins]

umm wolley - I think you got the point mixed up - rallying (greater fire risk) has lower/poorer safety standards for overalls.

Racing59 (get on with the car btw!) short oval impact speeds and G are plenty enough to cause bsf, 90 - 100mph head on into a wall... even the slower classes are plenty quick enough especially at places like wimbledon that emply post & rail barriers.

Note a 65mph impact is enough to kill you if you are unlucky so high speed / low speed is not as relevant as you think.

[chezza]

Thats very true...what looked like a hard hit, but nothing out of the ordinary in a banger race...the guy ended up with a broken finger, shoulder and pelvis...!

JohnW...that is not double speak. I am saying that I think that there could be evidence against HANS out there/being hidden. BUT I am also saying that I don't think HANS is totally unsafe, I just don't think that its perfect.

[Al Weyman]

I used to do HotRods and those steels and cables are hard and hurt when you hit em I can tell you form 1st hand experience.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by chezza

.....I am saying that I think that there could be evidence against HANS out there/being hidden......

Without evidence or examples, I suggest that this is scaremongering.

Al,
I suspect that the posts and cables are no more solid than Armco buried in an earth bank.

Sam
I'm sure that fatalities can occur well below 65 mph. It's the crash distance that needs extending in order to save injury. Until that happens, I believe that I am safer with a HANS than without.

Hans users
I wrote earlier about Martin Hunt's proposed training course. In that session, the doctor will be able to advise how to custom fit the HANS tethers to suit the individual. I am led to understand that it's likely that the tethers will be lengthened for most folk. This should help alleviate the currently restricted view.

[chezza]

I am not trying to scaremonger at all.

If I was a driver (I'm a marshal and a drivers gilfriend) I would not get one as I can see that HANS might not be all its cracked up to be.

Also as Sam has already said the amount of people that have "been saved by HANS" is higher than the amount of BSF that occured before the introduction of HANS. This means that the likelyhood that their accident would have resulted in a BSF is small. Ok it may have stopped you from having a stiff neck for a couple of weeks, but you would have survived that anyway, and could easily suffer from that in a road accident.

[bradenc]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

umm wolley - I think you got the point mixed up - rallying (greater fire risk) has lower/poorer safety standards for overalls.

Actually I think wooley had it right. The point being in rally it is unlikely that assistance will reach you before ANY fireproofing has expired. In circuit racing Someone will be there in a short time and thus you will need to be protected during extraction/extinguishing.

Not that I think this is right but I can see the reasoning.

If hans was free I'd wear one, but I wont fork out. I would be quite happy if it was made mandatory.

[chezza]

Surely if you are a long way from fire assistance you need better protection?! In rallying you could be a long way from assistance, depending on the length of the stage it could be about 5 mins where as in circuit racing there will be somebody with you in certainly less than a minute to extinguish the fire.

At the moment it looks as though people are saying that "oh rally drivers fire protection is going to have expired by the time anyone gets to them anyway so whats the point in them having high protection?" It looks like people are saying rally drivers are expendable where as racing drivers are worth more.

[Al Weyman]

I don't think that is being implied at all, it is just a case of being practical although I still think they should bethe same standard for race or rally because it would be a tragedy if someone was to die after they had a fiery accident that was in fact close to a marshall point, surely some rally incidence will happen close to help.

I find Braderic's comments confusing, he said he won't buy one because they are too dear yet is happy to see them made compusory, does that mean he will give the sport up if they were to be compulsory.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by bradenc

If hans was free I'd wear one, but I wont fork out. I would be quite happy if it was made mandatory.

Do you expect seatbelts and helmets to be supplied free of charge or have you bought those?

[chezza]

Rally fires can happen close to help or in the middle of nowhere...thats why they have to have better fire extinguishers fitted...yet they can still wear proban!

Anyway this is way off topic...fire safety not HANS.

[ss_collins]

we could make it a general safety thread??

[Teletubby]

Johnw, the Doctor to whom you refer is Paul Trafford who looks after WRC teams as well as BTCC, FBMW etc etc.

The seminar is intended to cover many aspects of driver safety, not just the HANS device and will try to offer advice to club drivers that would normally be available to drivers at higher levels of motorsport.

And, before I get flamed, no I am not making any money from the seminar! I am trying to put it together because, like most Rescue Crew and many Marshals, I have seen too many drivers killed and injured and feel that anything that can be done, regardless of whether it only helps one person, will be worth it.

With regard to the frequency of BSF, I can't comment particularly other than to say that the anecdotal evidence for HANS far far outweighs that against and to say that it may worsen an accident is not supported by evidence.

I am not suggesting that HANS should be mandatory but having dealt with drivers who have suffered BSF I feel that anything that gives you a chance to avoid that or similar injury has to be a good thing.

When considering the cost, just think that whilst you may have to miss a couple of races to cover the cost, it's a hell of a lot lower than the price you could pay for not having one!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by johnw

Hans users
I wrote earlier about Martin Hunt's proposed training course. In that session, the doctor will be able to advise how to custom fit the HANS tethers to suit the individual. I am led to understand that it's likely that the tethers will be lengthened for most folk. This should help alleviate the currently restricted view.

Do you have any idea when this may take place and where?

[Teletubby]

Initial plans are for October, probably at Thruxton.

[dtype38]

I got a friend to help me set the length of my HANS teathers following the instructions that came with the device. The correct setting was a lot longer than I had imagined and gives me 2/3 to 3/4 of the head movement that I had without it

[johnw]

Thanks for the Good Doctor's name Martin. Apologies for forgetting it, but it's an all too familiar problem these days
If there is anything we can do to help get the seminar moving, do let us know. I have started looking for some sponsorhip for it, but there are plenty of interested parties here so maybe they can help too.
Like the idea of it being a more general seminar than just HANS, as I have seen some pretty poor safety preparation especially regarding belt fitment on even professional series cars. I also think that the Blue Book is at odds with (some) manufacturers fitting instructions.

Interesting dtype, I'm going to have a bash at getting the tethers re-set on mine tomorrow, following some advice from Dr Trafford.

[dtype38]

By "a lot longer than I was expecting" I mean that I expected that the tethers would stop me being able to nod my head forward very much. When I set the tethers to the advised length I found I could actually nod my head as far forward as usual, which felt completely wrong for what the device was supposed to be protecting against. But then I tried to simulate what would happen in a frontal impact by throwing my weight and head forward as hard as I could against my harness. In that situation I found that the tethers did indeed go tight just as I felt the muscles in my neck begin to complain. This reassured me that if the worst happened they really would save me from getting an overly stretched neck!

[Wingman]

IMHO HANS is here to stay, and despite the potential to contribute to accidents at the moment, it will be improved and hopefully these faults will be "ironed out". However I don't believe the potential hazards can be simply ignored. Ask Brad Jones (Aussie V8 Supercar driver) what he thinks of the system. As for there being no evidence yet, waiting for someone to be burned to death is a bit harsh. Possibly the next generation will have a quick release set up, and an inertia reel on the straps to solve the vision problems.

[1200Datto27]

One of the issues with the V8 guys and the HANS is all of the extra stuff that they have connected as well, like airhoses. The NASCAR guys do not seem to have an issue with extricating themselves out of an inverted car with the HANS device attached, and they have a smaller area to get out of the car through.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Wingman

...Ask Brad Jones (Aussie V8 Supercar driver) what he thinks of the system.

As I have no way of knowing how to contact him, Perhaps you could enlighten us?

Originally Posted by Wingman

...Possibly the next generation will have a quick release set up, and an inertia reel on the straps to solve the vision problems.

Quick release straps exist now. Inertia reels an interesting idea. However all might be solved by "custom fitting".

[bradenc]

What I was saying was, I'd wear one if someone gave me one as a gift, if I had lottery money etc. I just wont fork out for one until I have to. I do not expect anyone to give me one.

I'd be happy to them compulsory and would then fork out without grumbling as I do for extinguisher, overalls helmet etc.

[ss_collins]

err bizzare tale of HANS woe from New South Wales Australia sent to me...

"A recent sprintcar prang over here, where the driver was wearing a hans resulted in the drivers eyeballs leaving their sockets, medics washed them down and reinstated. - spooky whay!"

well thats an angle none of us had thunked of!!

[chezza]

Oh blimey definately not one we had not thought of before and definately a hans caused injury...!

[bradenc]

Is it April 1st?

HTF did that happen?

[Fan]

Originally Posted by chezza

Oh blimey definately not one we had not thought of before and definately a hans caused injury...!

Not at all actually. If you have a big head on collision your eyes tend to leave the sockets, however they do tend to go back in. Stirling Moss had a similar experience in his big accident at Goodwood. One of his eyes was came out and stayed out. You can usually tell that the drivers eyes have "popped out" when they have severe bruising around the eyes...