Realistically will we ever see Super Tourers again?

[Un0Turb0-WP]

What do you guys think the chances are that we get Super Touring cars sometime in the future again??

That would be something for sure, As much as i love BTCC/WTCC now
its just not the same! Where are the cars with the huge 19" wheels tucked under the fenders!

[JMeissner]

I dont think we will see ST again, no. Its too expensive and already done. But I hope that we see rules similair to ST in the future, or rather, quicker than S2000

[pink69]

Realistically.....no. Bee all and end all I'm afraid. Like JMeissner said, too expensive. Same reason we'll never see a Group C sports car again.

[Eddy V]

No I don't think so either, shame really as I loved those cars. Still love the sound of them when a car races somewhere. Can't say the same about the group C, dangerous things they were.

[avro]

You can still see some Super Tourers racing in the UK in 2006, albeit not in the BTCC arena.

There are at least 6 ST cars now to compete in the 2006 LMA Euro Saloon Championships

1 x 1996B Nissan Primera
1 x 1997 Nissan Primera
1 x 1999 Nissan Primera
1 x 1996 Honda Accord
1 x 1997 Honda Accord
1 x 1995 Vauxhall Cavalier

plus the occasional races by a 2000 Ford Mondeo and a 1999 Nissan Primera.

All looking good for lovers of ST cars

[kmchow]

Interesting why there is so many Primeras racing?? Or are there just more dedicated Nissan fans?

[WebberForWDC]

Well 911 Cup cars are only a little slower than Super Tourers and have 19" (?) wheels and sit pretty flat but they are pretty dull to watch right ?

So the outright speed itself can't be that important, so why not stick 19" wheels & louder exhausts etc. on the BTCC reg cars, that won't contribute to continual costs surely? ??

What's the other cost to fabricate the inner guards to fit bigger wheels, that's not that expensive surely?

Super Tourers were still very slow compared to F3, yet they carried such a formerly massive series right? Lots of money is spent in all cases, so why not have regs for a faster style of car... bigger capacity or silhouette or what-ever. You could still make different new regs that switch to bigger engines etc., regs that lend themselves to being fast much more cheaply... mandate a ye olde Sierra style diff in the back and go racing I think?

Allowing 3L engines, or turbos, or allowing the current cut-down 2L engines to be installed in ultra light-weight silhouette chassis with a cheap control RWD transmission but real body-panels over the top. Something like that, just anything to bring back the style of Super Touring?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

So the outright speed itself can't be that important, so why not stick 19" wheels & louder exhausts etc. on the BTCC reg cars, that won't contribute to continual costs surely? ??

The 996 GT3 Cup cars uses 18" and the Supertourers uses 19". And I agree, the BTC-Touring and the Super2000 regs should use 19" too, or atleast 18". The S2000 uses 17" now and that looks awful, and I belive the BTC-Touring has that too. However, the more free arodynamic specifications of the BTC-Touring makes them look way better then the S2000, just compare the S2000 Alfa 156 to a BTC-Touring MG ZS. Or why not the S2000 Astra that runs in STCC compared to the Astra that ran in BTCC. And my personal opinion is that hatchbacks has nothing to do on a racetrack, I hate the looks of Civics, Focuses and Leons.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

Allowing 3L engines, or turbos, or allowing the current cut-down 2L engines to be installed in ultra light-weight silhouette chassis with a cheap control RWD transmission but real body-panels over the top. Something like that, just anything to bring back the style of Super Touring?

Whilst an increase in capacity can't be bad, running 'ultra-light silouette chassis' with RWD would be taking them way too far from the production cars they are based on, which would be a big mistake.

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by racer69

Whilst an increase in capacity can't be bad, running 'ultra-light silouette chassis' with RWD would be taking them way too far from the production cars they are based on, which would be a big mistake.

It's a very delicate balance. On the one hand, you want the cars to look stock enough for people to recognize and be able to relate to. On the other hand, you want them to be racy looking and performing enough to keep people's attention.

I always think single make (or hatchbacks) are good for entry level racing. Then you progress up to touring cars (sedans). The final/highest series can then be silhouette or 2 door coupe racing. That's my personal opinion.

[WebberForWDC]

I think it would be good if the world touring regs made for cars that looked like this (but with super tourer wheels of course)..

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/scc...sp-tc-0308.jpg

Some good sustainable regs that make for very fast good looking cars would be very nice as world touring regs, I think relaxing the link to road cars a bit wouldn't hurt. If they could make regs so these spectacular cars are cheap to build/buy, plus durable and cheap & easy to run, to encourage lots of privateers & strong uptake in national series, it would be very good.

[WebberForWDC]

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/scc...le-jt-0270.jpg

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/scc...lr-gn-0118.jpg

etc. Sorry about the excessive Volvo photos! The Swedish championship ones don't have flares or wings like that, is that right?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

The Swedish championship ones don't have flares or wings like that, is that right?

They look like this:




The Super2000 Volvo S60 driven by Robert Dahlgren in STCC 2005, looks kinda ugly IMO, and bigger rims and a little more arodynamic thingies could only make it look better.

[racer69]

I don't really see why we need big wings and huge wheels for a category of car that is promoting what we drive on the road.

If we want the cars to look 'sporty', then wouldn't 'sports' models of cars do, that come complete with a deeper front bumper, boot spoiler, flared wheelarches, bigger wheels etc....

kmchow - Doesn't your ladder system basically already exist, with the entry levels series, Touring Cars, and the silouette/2 door racing being GT racing?

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by racer69

I don't really see why we need big wings and huge wheels for a category of car that is promoting what we drive on the road.

If it's too stock, it's too boring. Too racy and you can't relate anymore.

Originally Posted by racer69

kmchow - Doesn't your ladder system basically already exist, with the entry levels series, Touring Cars, and the silouette/2 door racing being GT racing?

Nope, in my "motorsports utopian" world, we wouldn't have hatchbacks in my touring car/mid level category.

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

The Super2000 Volvo S60 driven by Robert Dahlgren in STCC 2005, looks kinda ugly IMO, and bigger rims and a little more arodynamic thingies could only make it look better.

In late '05, the STCC Volvo team got brand new S60s? Previously, they were running the updated '04s?

[WebberForWDC]

Originally Posted by racer69

If we want the cars to look 'sporty', then wouldn't 'sports' models of cars do, that come complete with a deeper front bumper, boot spoiler, flared wheelarches, bigger wheels etc....

True. Certainly the Americans seem to have different ideas, even their Monaro/GTO from that series is a world apart from the ones in other series in terms of looks & shape right? even if I think it's actually somewhat relatively stock (??)?

[E46]

Originally Posted by racer69

I don't really see why we need big wings and huge wheels for a category of car that is promoting what we drive on the road.

How should a "perfect" touring car be? Perhaps like current S2000s but with a more powerful engine?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by kmchow

In late '05, the STCC Volvo team got brand new S60s? Previously, they were running the updated '04s?

I think you are right, as I remember it they had the prodrive built S60 cars from the begining of the S2000 rules in STCC (2002) and they upgraded them themself, but for the 05 season they built there own cars compleatly and thus was able to make bigger changes to the cars as they weren't allowed with the old cars due to the homoligation, and it might be true they ran the old 04 Prodrive cars in teh begining of the season, I'm not really sure.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by E46

How should a "perfect" touring car be? Perhaps like current S2000s but with a more powerful engine?

Like a V8 Supercar

[racer69]

What, two manufacturers only and control parts everywhere?

I thought a perfect Touring Car was something like what we had in Group A, in terms of cars relating to the road going cars with some improvements for racing, and still looking like the cars we buy on the outside.

To get anything like that again you would need to look at two things though, a more realistic turbo equivalency factor, and not allowing 'sporting evolutions'........

[E46]

Originally Posted by racer69

To get anything like that again you would need to look at two things though, a more realistic turbo equivalency factor, and not allowing 'sporting evolutions'........

So difficult balance during Gr.A years.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by racer69

What, two manufacturers only and control parts everywhere?

I mean the looks of the car.

[WebberForWDC]

Does it really matter there is no Xsara AWD Turbo or V8 Vectra (one-off V8 road Astra coupe at some point was there!?)?

I don't think V8 Supercars would be ideal template, their wheels are too small and bigger bodykits would be better. They don't handle normally either, I would expect leading European touring cars regs to allow for sitting flat on the track like a Ferrari, high pitch noise, with similar smaller capacity low weight ideas like Super Touring. Not no grip, long braking distances, massive body roll, massive understeer and massive oversteer on power-down. Where's the European style if it's a car where the drivers spear off into the fence if they ease the throttle on too fast, rather it should be more in line with 550 GT1 cars just slamming the throttle on agressively and braking aggressively etc.

[chunder]

I think the perfect touring car should be like the old ETCC days, Rover, Jag, BMW, biggish coupes!

They are touring cars in my eyes, not Civics and Astras!

But then you have to look at budgets and what the makers want, if they wanna sell smaller cars in a market then that is what the formula should be, like the V8 cars in Oz, the NASCAR series and ETCC, thouhg the higher levels are more about brand awareness i feel

Mid eighties for me was the peak of what touring cars should be about, but sadly I dont think we will see its ilk again. Lovely cars, more endurnace style races with two drivers and the like. Actually the late eighties BTCC was quite good with a few two driver races. Who can forget Stog Blimqvist spinning the GRavett car on the last lap at Donington. The only mistake I have ever seen Stog make!!