V6 Engines for 2014

[Crazy_Pigal]

Well this is a breath of fresh air, a compromise that is better than either of the alternatives, roll on 2014.
Like many of you I'd like to see the variety of I4 v's V6 (maybe even V's V8) but it's the cost that's stopped that.
My guess at what the final regs will look like:

1. Fixed bore size
2. Fixed Vee angle
3. Fixed Bore Spacing
4. Fixed C of G
5. Single turbo (or maybe two) but fixed either way
6. Direct injection (upto 500 bar)
7. 4 valves per cylinder
8. Fuel flow limit (to be reduced each year as development increases power)
9. limit on exotic materials
10. Turbo compounding (electric) to follow in future
11. 120 kW KERS (hopefully usable for much more than 7 seconds perlap)

There'll probably be a limit of 12,000rpm but I can't see the point if there's a fuel flow limit as you won't be able to use the extra revs anyway, the power will just drop as friction increases, you'll get more power at lower speeds & high boost.
I'd expect the engines to run very lean, even stratified charge, so no spitting flames like in the 80's, shame that!
The good news is we'll no longer have an engine freeze, I hated the idea of the pinnacle of motorsport having engines that couldn't be refined or developed, bring it on.

[TF110]

Hopefully it'll bring back other manufacturers, Toyota, Honda, BMW; I'm looking at you.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Marbot

My understanding is that modern turbos have all but eliminated turbo lag due to the use of things like variable vane and twin scroll technology. If it hasn't been completely eliminated, then it's up to the clever people at the engine factories to find solutions to that problem.

Whether or not they have one, two or whatever number of turbos, I'm sure that they will seek to make them as efficient as possible anyways. Having the need for fewer turbos would be a step in that direction.

Pleased to see that V6 engine is being looked at (less room for turbos though).

sorry Marbot , I'm trying to be as gentle as possible but your understanding is completley incorrrect, the auto industry as a whole currently has massive problems with excessive turbo lag, I mean like 5 seconds worth and un-drivable, this is with particular reference to turbocharged extreeme downsozed engines for passenger car use, like only 150bhp from a 1.2 Litre I4......this is actually the specific line of business that I currently work in (electronic boost assist) so I feel well positioned to make such a statement........VGT and twin scroll only partially fill the gap, they are nothing special despite all the hype.

I was lucky enough to get a draft copy of the finalised 2013 engine regs (I4) and believe me when I say the FIA had nailed everything down, even the bell-housing bolt pattern was layed out in X, Y and Z!.......I completley agree with Crazy_Pigal.......the FIA will nail everything down.......forget about having multiple engine choice configurations, this will just burn development costs in the finding of which route is best.

[deeks6]

oh say it aint so...

[browney]

While I think that having an open engine configuration is crazy because of development costs, I do think that this was an oportunity where they could have had a 4 or 6 depending on what the team wanted. There could be a weight penalty for the extra cylinders (as was the case in MotoGP when there were 5,4 and tripples).

This would allow manufacturers like Renault to have more of a link with their road cars while Ferrari can make high revving sixes. I don't think this would lead to a huge cost or performance disparity.


I don't understand how people can complain about the idea of turbo v6s. The older generation talk about much better formula 1 was when they were younger and the teams were running 1.5l turbo 4s and 6s. So is that everyone now saying that really we have the best format for F1 right now? I think the old cars also sounded amazing too. If the FIA could just stop pandering to the top teams and cut back on the above body aero (rather than banning exhaust blown diffusers that I can't see harms overtaking as much) then nobody could complain at all.

[wnut]

Browney, the racing that F1 has delivered this year has been as good if not better (I'd go with better) than anything that we have ever had in the past. You are looking at Monza (1 GP) in the late 60s and early 70s for a comparison.

[Matt]

Wonder if Honda will be allowed to use the same motor they did in '88? :P

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gttouring

So being so close to the new IndyCar specs will the engines on IndyCar side match displacement? If so what then?

The new IndyCar engine for 2012 will be a 2.2L V6 twin turbo. There's quite a bit of info on it here.

http://www.racer.com/chevrolet-relea...rticle/203869/

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by deeks6

oh say it aint so...

It's so. And it's probably a good job really, because someone really clever might think that even four cylinders are far too many.

The new engines will probably be just as restricted in their architecture as the current V8s are. Only remains to be seen what exactly it is that the exhaust gases are allowed to power, and how that power can be used.

[Razor]

Just the other day I caught myself thinking "F1 should adopt 2.0L twin turbo V6's for their new gen cars."

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Razor

Just the other day I caught myself thinking "F1 should adopt 2.0L twin turbo V6's for their new gen cars."

With IndyCar using a 2.2L V6 twin turbo and F1 going down a very similar route, that sort of knocks on the head the 1.6L turbo Global Racing Engine proposed by the FIA.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

With IndyCar using a 2.2L V6 twin turbo and F1 going down a very similar route, that sort of knocks on the head the 1.6L turbo Global Racing Engine proposed by the FIA.

The FIA doesn't govern Indy racing.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The FIA doesn't govern Indy racing.

I know that. ACCUS are the FIA member organization, responsible for IndyCar.

[gttouring]

Isn't indy using 2.5 liter v6. If so how will bernie or whoever is in charge feel if the Indy cars are just flat out faster? Of course the knuckle heads in charge try to limit power and speed there more than anything. I could get into F1 v6tt. That's solid. Afterall how awesome has LeMans been with the turbo monster V6 lmp cars been?
What will PURE and Pollack do now, scrap all there work or have they been vaporware any how.

[nameless]

Whilst maybe it wouldnt fit in with the cost reduction strategy i would like to see a very simple engine rule structure: - specify a (quite stringent) maximum fuel usage limit and then leave the teams to it.
Being an engineer by trade I dont like to see layout, size, rev limit etc specified as it stifles creativity and innovation. An open configuration would attract more manufacturers i feel and perhaps attract some leading edge technology. It would tick the green box too and could feed into real world product development at a time that efficiency and economy are key drivers.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by browney

While I think that having an open engine configuration is crazy because of development costs, I do think that this was an oportunity where they could have had a 4 or 6 depending on what the team wanted. There could be a weight penalty for the extra cylinders (as was the case in MotoGP when there were 5,4 and tripples).

This would allow manufacturers like Renault to have more of a link with their road cars while Ferrari can make high revving sixes. I don't think this would lead to a huge cost or performance disparity.


I don't understand how people can complain about the idea of turbo v6s. The older generation talk about much better formula 1 was when they were younger and the teams were running 1.5l turbo 4s and 6s. So is that everyone now saying that really we have the best format for F1 right now? I think the old cars also sounded amazing too. If the FIA could just stop pandering to the top teams and cut back on the above body aero (rather than banning exhaust blown diffusers that I can't see harms overtaking as much) then nobody could complain at all.

Originally Posted by wnut

Browney, the racing that F1 has delivered this year has been as good if not better (I'd go with better) than anything that we have ever had in the past. You are looking at Monza (1 GP) in the late 60s and early 70s for a comparison.

Sorry, I'm a little lost here?

[wnut]

Sorry Adam43 I agree it was a bit obscure:

Browney said in post #30 "So is that everyone now saying that really we have the best format for F1 right now?"

I responded that yes I thought the format was as good as anything we have ever had from a racing point of view. The only one I care about!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The new IndyCar engine for 2012 will be a 2.2L V6 twin turbo. There's quite a bit of info on it here.

http://www.racer.com/chevrolet-relea...rticle/203869/

Be a damn good idea if F1 adopted exactly the same engine regs, for IndyCar and F1!

However Knighty gave us a glimpse

"I was lucky enough to get a draft copy of the finalised 2013 engine regs (I4) and believe me when I say the FIA had nailed everything down, even the bell-housing bolt pattern was layed out in X, Y and Z!.......I completley agree with Crazy_Pigal.......the FIA will nail everything down.......forget about having multiple engine choice configurations, this will just burn development costs in the finding of which route is best."

Closed shop??

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

Sorry Adam43 I agree it was a bit obscure:

Browney said in post #30 "So is that everyone now saying that really we have the best format for F1 right now?"

I responded that yes I thought the format was as good as anything we have ever had from a racing point of view. The only one I care about!

Thanks, Adam.

[Marbot]

Apparently, some circuits will switch to Indy cars if F1 introduces its 'green' engines.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...-hits-F1-races

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Apparently, some circuits will switch to Indy cars if F1 introduces its 'green' engines.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...-hits-F1-races

Those circuits are very brave to be handing out an ultimatum like that, Indycar's following outside of the USA is miniscule compared to F1.

Good luck to them if they went down that route!

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Apparently, some circuits will switch to Indy cars if F1 introduces its 'green' engines.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...-hits-F1-races

pointless chest beating imho!

[devil_angel]

And I used to dream of seeing F1 cars roar with V12s when I was growing up :/

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by devil_angel

And I used to dream of seeing F1 cars roar with V12s when I was growing up :/

Those were the days.

Maybe F1 should ask Superleague* if it can use their engines instead?

*4.2 litre, V12, 750 BHP.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Those circuits are very brave to be handing out an ultimatum like that, Indycar's following outside of the USA is miniscule compared to F1.

Good luck to them if they went down that route!

IndyCar's following in the US is miniscule compared to what it was when CART ran the show. As for China hosting an IndyCar race next year, with the new chassis/engine combo, IndyCar commercial boss Terry Angstadt thinks it's a possibility; read the last paragraph.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110621/IRL/110629972