Schu WinS!!!

[Gt_R]

Yeah..i agree a bit of competition would be nice..which is why i was pleased at the start of this season with the improvement showed by BAR, and also cheered when Kimi got pole and managed to come in 2nd this race showing Mclaren finding their feet

I never mind if another driver wins the GP instead of MS, but i'm just glad that for so many races, i could live in peace without the gloatings that would surface whenever MS fails to win

[Gt_R]

Fundamentally, what i want is a deserved result..

A different result may be interesting..but i rather it be deserving..and unfortunately, many teams / drivers are currently far from convincing.

[R]

Originally posted by Gt_R
just saying if the results in Silverstone was a Kimi win, and MS retired with problems, the reaction to the race would be =very different.

Just look at Monaco...

Absolutely. I see no reason why I should hide the fact that I'm fed up with the Schumacher dominance, and it's making me rapidly lose my interest in F1. I think I will record the Hockenheim race and only watch it (or parts of it) if something interesting happens. For me, only a few years ago, missing out on an F1 race would be unthinkable. Now I'm not bothered anymore.

Originally posted by garcon
I do appreciate the historic significance of what we're witnessing

For me, the historic event happened with the recordbreaking 2002 season. 2000 was OK - even though I don't support TGF, to see Ferrari finally take the WDC again after 21 years of waiting was OK. 2001 was more of the same even though more dominantly, and was not a fun year with JPM being robbed so many times. 2002 was an utter bore, but I accepted it and stuck with F1 due to the historic significance of such a dominance. 2003 was a promising season and it looked like we finally were on the way up from the quagmire. Only to end up with 2002-all-over-again-only-even-worse in 2004...

I'm sorry - dominance and historic significance is one thing, but sheesh man... enough is enough.

[Gt_R]

I would think that if nobody bothers to do a job as good as Ferrari/MS had done, then they can't complain if luck and success don't go their way in generous amounts

[Aysedasi]

All very true indeed, but it misses the point of those keen on some degree of additional interest over and above admiring the current TGF/Ferrari brilliance.....

I also can't agree with garcon that this season has seen Michael become the greatest. Loads of wins, yes, virtually total domination, yes, but against what? Little or no serious competition for virtually all of the season so far. So why choose this season? Greatness doesn't necessarily come from statistics alone.....

[Peter Mallett]

Interestingly, we remember Fangio more fondly than Alberto Ascari. Alberto had the best cars and nobody could catch him.

[ttc]

If you were to line up todays (2004) cars vs yesteryears (let's just say 2001 and we'll just ignore all the pre-2000) cars, todays BEAT the yesteryears handsdown, no? In terms of speed, in terms of reliability, in terms of handling, etc.

With all hardwares IMPROVED over the past, the only thing that makes a REAL difference is the driver, no?

British GP laid rest to the claim that it was only machinery as Mclaren obviously had a faster car, yet MS/Ferrari managed to beat KR/Mclaren using tactics and exceptional driving.

As to why garcon stated so, I presumed it's because with as huge a gap as he has over his NEAREST competitors, he's still putting in 100% if not more in every race, the desire to win, the motivation, the spirit etc, something that we don't get to see very often, even from other greats of the past. And his ability to pull off the 4 stops strategy in France, and make his 2 stops count in British.

[Aysedasi]

No, sorry, it still doesn't convince me, any more than I'm convinced that the McLaren was quicker last Sunday.......

[JohnSSC]

I love these threads! "The State of F1" this and "snoozefest" that!

I think McLaren may actually be coming back into the game strong. That is the point: Ferrari raised their game and NO ONE followed suit. Renault has made spotty progress and BAR was so far behind that now that they are in striking distance, they are now learning how hard it is to gain that last little bit of performance needed to win.

Now that McLaren is done building the Taj Mahal they are focusing on building racing cars - a stunningly simple concept! It tells you something (I think) when you look at Ferrari's Maranello complex and say: "Architecturally, this is really ho-hum." It is the people inside those bulidings that make the difference.

My friends, Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.

McLaren may be realizing that, and the races will be a lot more interesting not when some change is imposed by FIA but when the other teams build a better mousetrap (and/or F1 car).

[Aysedasi]

Absolutely, its hard to argue (and I'm not going to try) against the "everyone else needs to raise their game" theory, because that's 100% correct. It just worries me how long I will have to enjoy (endure?) the spectacle of tyre and pit stop strategy before they do.....

[fog_shadow]

Originally posted by Son of Jor-El

Take the film Sixth Sense for example! The first time you watch it, it is utterly intriguing and exciting, because you don't know how it's going to end. To watch it again, with the knowledge that Bruce Willis is not exactly who he thinks he is, dramatically reduces the impact of the climax.

who is Bruce Willis in the sixth sense and who does he think he is.


for goodness sake man, have you even stopped to think that maybe, just maybe there are some people who came as close to seeing the movie as they came to seeing "dead people"

[Gt_R]

After the British GP, once again it just confirms that a certain minority cannot bring themselves to congratulate or appreciate Michael.

In the past, they claim how MS cheated, or how his wins are given...that they'd congratulate MS only when he wins a fight if they ever see one. Well, France and British GP, MS wins a clean fight..with a field that's competitive...but people still keep the moans going.

But it's alright. Did people complain how uncompetitve a field MS had to compete with? Look at the gaps at qualifying and fastest race laps in the recent races and compare it to those of the past...is the gap any bigger?

Like i've said, MS is just but 1 person in a field of 20. If the other 19 guys can't produce a show, can't put up a fight...there's really nothing MS could do about it.

[Kicking-back]

Gt_R - I am not a fan of Michael or Ferrari, but on this occasion you are 100% correct.

[Peter Mallett]

He could go slower!

I named him my driver of the race but I still find it a crashing bore watching him win all the time, and I really want to see him overtake people. He tried against Button but the lad wouldn't cave in to the "pressure" and so he sat back after about 8 laps) and waited for the pit stops. Not a problem for me but it was a bit obvious.

[Gt_R]

k-B

Peter, i agree more action on track may be a more lovely thing.

But let's take a look -
Kimi is significantly faster than MS for many stints yet couldn't pass. He also didn't make any dramatic nor serious attempt to muscle pass MS.

Button was right up on RB after the restart but couldn't pass... neither put up a great fight for position.

RB and Button also both require the use of pitstop to pass each other.

When these things happen at the front of the pack, the problem no longer lies with a driver. On the bright side, it's a sign that the cars are so competitive now, it's difficult for a car to have enough an advantage to overtake.

[Peter Mallett]

Got to disagree re Button and RB. It was almost missed on tv but Button was squeezed into Abbey whilst trying to pass. After that the Ferrari ran off into the distance. And the BAR was definitely slower than the Ferraris.

Kimi exemplified the problem with the aerodynamics in that it is impossible to pass even if your car is faster. The point may be that if you have to fight to defend a position you are more likely to make an error thus letting the car behind through.

However if you know your strategy is working well and you can wait for pit stops your defence is less necessary and you therefore don't feel pressured into an error.

Not so much a product of the cars but more a product of the rules.

[Son of Jor-El]

Originally posted by fog_shadow
who is Bruce Willis in the sixth sense and who does he think he is.


for goodness sake man, have you even stopped to think that maybe, just maybe there are some people who came as close to seeing the movie as they came to seeing "dead people"

Sorry that you've taken me so seriously.
Chill out
I was just using a light hearted anagoly, which I was hoping to convey the excited anticipation of watching a film that one hasn't seen. Obviously I needn't have bothered, as it seems any comparison made with anything other than F1 is going to create such powerful emotions against the poster!

[garcon]

Slightly off-topic, but on the question of why this season Schumacher became the greatest... I just feel that, having broken the record with 6 WDCs, and with such a close battle to do it, it would have been easy to relax slightly. But Schumacher and Ferrari have done the opposite. The team as a whole and Schumacher in particular have reached near perfection this season. Yes the other teams could have put up a better fight (and maybe they will yet), but that's partly because Ferrari and Michael have moved the goalposts. And with what new motivation? For the sheer fun of it I think. They just love winning so much.

But as much as anything it's the way Schumacher has driven this season. Aysedasi is absolutely right - greatness is not achieved merely by statistics, and there is a healthy dose of subjectivity involved. For me, there is just something extra in Schumacher's driving this season, a kind of imperious joy in what he's doing. Possibly because the pressure is off slightly having got the 6 WDCs, but no less impressive for that.

Um. Right, sorry everyone, back to topic!

[Super Tourer]

Looking at the fastest laps, Kimi's fastest was 1:19.554 compared to Schumachers 1:18.739 (fastest lap of the race). Both were set at similar points in the race MS lap 10, KR lap 14, which shows that McLaren didn't quite have the race pace.

Incidentally DC's best lap (1:20.547) was 1 second off Kimi's, he said he found the car 'nervous' and that shows in the times.

Hopefully they can close the gap and we can start to see some real racing, which will limit Ferrari's ablility to win the race from wherever they start. If MS can't build his usual 20/25 second gap, then they will have to pass cars on the track.

As has been said before, it's up to the other 18 cars on the grid to give Ferrari a race.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by garcon
For me, there is just something extra in Schumacher's driving this season, a kind of imperious joy in what he's doing. Possibly because the pressure is off slightly having got the 6 WDCs, but no less impressive for that.

No, you're quite right. I think "imperious" is an excellent choice of description. But its at least partly so because of the inadequacy of the opposition (so far). I'm not saying that Michael wouldn't raise his game still further if the likes of Raikkonen, Button, Montoya and co. were able to start pushing him much harder each race - I suspect he would - and then, perhaps, I'd have no choice but to agree with your assessment.

Does that sound grudging? Well yes, I guess it is. No great secret that I'm not a Schuey fan as such, but I am at least honest enough to admit that since Hakkinen departed the scene, there has barely been another driver to hold a candle to him.

So yes, well done to him. The last thing any of us "moaners" can say is that he doesn't deserve his success.

[Aysedasi]

I think that was on topic, eh Adam?

[Adam43]

Close enough