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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:04 (Ref:3752240)   #7996
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I know that a win's a win, but what will we remember more? The Audi vs Peugeot battles, Audi vs Porsche, Toyota vs Porsche, or the wins over the years that Audi and Porsche got when front line competition was lacking at LM?

Also, will we remember the Audi vs Peugeot races outside of LM, or Audi vs Porsche vs Acura in the ALMS, or even semi-factory Audi vs Dyson or Audi vs Panoz in the ALMS, more than we remember when Audi and Peugeot dominated against privateer teams in the ALMS and LMS?

Granted, some of us will remember when Rondeau won at LM as one of the few driver/owners to win LM, and the only one to date to win in a car of his team's own design. But that win wasn't exactly against the strongest of teams if you discount the single Joest Porsche 936 (yes, it was called a 908, but it was in reality a 936, if you don't count that the 908/917/936 were related).
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:17 (Ref:3752243)   #7997
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Quite true. I won't particularly remember many of the Audi wins, as they were against weak opposition. But I don't think Toyota are in it now for memories. They want their name on the trophy and after years of second places stretching back now for decades, I can understand that entirely. As I say, different entrants/manufacturers etc. do Le Mans for different reasons. It may be that I'm just trying to persuade myself that Toyota won't pull out - but if they don't, I'll still be rooting for them in June '18. Just as I was rooting for them (and later the DCJCs) this year
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:48 (Ref:3752248)   #7998
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I know that a win's a win, but what will we remember more? The Audi vs Peugeot battles, Audi vs Porsche, Toyota vs Porsche, or the wins over the years that Audi and Porsche got when front line competition was lacking at LM?

Also, will we remember the Audi vs Peugeot races outside of LM, or Audi vs Porsche vs Acura in the ALMS, or even semi-factory Audi vs Dyson or Audi vs Panoz in the ALMS, more than we remember when Audi and Peugeot dominated against privateer teams in the ALMS and LMS?

Granted, some of us will remember when Rondeau won at LM as one of the few driver/owners to win LM, and the only one to date to win in a car of his team's own design. But that win wasn't exactly against the strongest of teams if you discount the single Joest Porsche 936 (yes, it was called a 908, but it was in reality a 936, if you don't count that the 908/917/936 were related).
The average person who would hear about Toyota's in reality hollow win does not know or remember any of this, so does it matter?
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:54 (Ref:3752251)   #7999
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You can point out that most Le Mans wins weren't worthy if you really want to. I think there is some severe missing the point, the romance, the spirit, the economics, the world and the plain simple timings of this race.

Perhaps we shouldn't hold the race in the years that the organisers can't muster a decent fight for the victory (on some criteria). Or at least until Audi enter again.

I just see what we've got and enjoy that it's own context.

(This is arguably the wrong thread for this, but yet again we now have the same stuff repeated in every thread related to LMP racing).
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:59 (Ref:3752253)   #8000
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I've been to Le Mans in years when there was little competition at the front. I've been in years when others I normally went with bailed, e.g. in 1992, because the field was so poor that it wouldn't be a good race (they were wrong). It would be good - very good - if Porsche stick with it, but as others have said, I fear the writing is on the wall. But I'll still be there.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 21:03 (Ref:3752254)   #8001
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 21:06 (Ref:3752255)   #8002
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If Porsche and Toyota is gone, we are going to have a massive LMP1 Privateer field fighting for the win. I wouldn't expect an epic Le Mans!

Maybe that is just me, not taking any sides, I'm in for the race, not for a favourite team. I would miss Porsche and Toyota, but Le Mans will continue with a full grid without them.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 21:21 (Ref:3752258)   #8003
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I would hope that would be the case, that we have a significant upsurge in the LMP1 privateer field. But I have a feeling that at least some perspective teams are waiting to see what Porsche and maybe Toyota do. Also, as Bart Hayden from Rebellion said to SC365, he doesn't want to jump back into LMP1 and be basically the only guys there.

And outside of the race being rescheduled to different times of the year (1956 due to track construction and 1968 due to strikes and protests), the only time that LM was canceled was 1940-1948 due to World War II and it's aftermath, and 1936. And that was the year where a combination of economic problems and issues with getting entries and rules sorted out lead to the race being postponed, and later canceled that year.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 21:25 (Ref:3752260)   #8004
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Look over there! There is a WEC thread! And what's that next to it? An LMP1 thread! Amazing.

We're all guilty.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 21:30 (Ref:3752263)   #8005
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The hd package did its job at Nurburgring. What's so good about it? We only got to see it as the race weekend started.

Does the reported theory that Porsche's hybrid system is more suited to there hold any truth?
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 21:41 (Ref:3752267)   #8006
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I would hope that would be the case, that we have a significant upsurge in the LMP1 privateer field. But I have a feeling that at least some perspective teams are waiting to see what Porsche and maybe Toyota do. Also, as Bart Hayden from Rebellion said to SC365, he doesn't want to jump back into LMP1 and be basically the only guys there.

And outside of the race being rescheduled to different times of the year (1956 due to track construction and 1968 due to strikes and protests), the only time that LM was canceled was 1940-1948 due to World War II and it's aftermath, and 1936. And that was the year where a combination of economic problems and issues with getting entries and rules sorted out lead to the race being postponed, and later canceled that year.
Le Mans isn't going to be cancelled - not for Toyota or Porsche.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 21:55 (Ref:3752272)   #8007
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This time I am pretty optimistic about Porsche. More to question is what in 2 year, next and 2019. Will they have new power unit, change / optimise a hybrid system? Because, from 2020, expecially in terms plug-in hybrid (because of their Mission-E 800V sportcar) Porsche seems to be pretty interested in this. Well, from last weekend, if I am understand new regs. seems to be pretty open to recharge battery during a pit stop (Look there: last paragraphs under last photo http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/pas...eglement-2020/ ) and this solution seems to welcome well from Porsche. So, endurance way is better for this as Formula E. Keep tradictions and bring some new way. Diesel was a past way. But, if Porsche is looking for a future, it is good way.

Question is what next year. Lost in desert? But nonsens to pull out now and in 2020 come back. right?. :-/ Hitzinger is out from 2015 and how will be brainstormer for new project? This year 919HY lost three engines. It seems it is an issue for long race now. 2L V4 is 4 years old, new regs. (and fast pace) loading this lean-burn engine (look, every car that lose power had oil pressure issue, or cooling issue and those two things are always characteristic for lean-burn racing engine issue and small engine had to had lean-burn to produce well fuel economy) for LM24. Also front axle is pretty fragile for 919HY. I think, only stuff that works well is ERS-H. If I know, It worked well everytime.

BTW Does 919HY ICE (or Toyota's TS050 2017 2,4L V6) use Miller cycle as Audi does?

Do not forget, that next car usually come from old one. That problem had Toyota last year as well (desing of the axle, air flow etc...).
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Old 18 Jul 2017, 01:07 (Ref:3752292)   #8008
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I've been hearing snarky comments that Porsche is in LMP1 very much as a marketing exercise, because it only sells 30% sportscars nowadays (the rest being SUVs and 4-door GTs) but wants to keep a racing image. If that's the case, and Porsche can pull rabbits out the bag like this HD aero kit, why not keep going?

They might even get some tech development out of this marketing exercise
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Old 18 Jul 2017, 05:31 (Ref:3752307)   #8009
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I've been hearing snarky comments that Porsche is in LMP1 very much as a marketing exercise, because it only sells 30% sportscars nowadays (the rest being SUVs and 4-door GTs) but wants to keep a racing image. If that's the case, and Porsche can pull rabbits out the bag like this HD aero kit, why not keep going?

They might even get some tech development out of this marketing exercise
Well...the issue with the 30% sportscar comments is that they need to define a "sportscar".
Porsche marketing strategy is to have the "sportiest" product in every market segment that it competes in, so from a marketing perspective, the marketing exercise is correct.

Furthermore, exactly what percentage of Toyota's sales are sportscars? What about Audi? Peugeot?

As for the aerokit - Nurburgring is a track that particularly suits the 919, both in terms of the aero and in terms of the hybrid system. We will only see if the new HDF aerokit is really that good once we get to the other tracks.
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Old 18 Jul 2017, 06:27 (Ref:3752312)   #8010
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Well...the issue with the 30% sportscar comments is that they need to define a "sportscar".
Porsche marketing strategy is to have the "sportiest" product in every market segment that it competes in, so from a marketing perspective, the marketing exercise is correct.

Furthermore, exactly what percentage of Toyota's sales are sportscars? What about Audi? Peugeot?

As for the aerokit - Nurburgring is a track that particularly suits the 919, both in terms of the aero and in terms of the hybrid system. We will only see if the new HDF aerokit is really that good once we get to the other tracks.
Toyota is all about dev and marketing of hybrid tech though. You could argue it's still marketing, but whilst Porsche market sportscars, Toyota market hybrid tech. They're big players in that with things like the Prius. Audi's thing was "look at how amazing our diesels are. Even if you buy an Audi road diesel, it's still awesome", and that got shut down.
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