Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides MotorsportAds  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17 Jul 2011, 07:01 (Ref:2927599)   #31
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,076
wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by emjaya View Post
Yes, a Frank Costin design, I think? I have been trying to remember the name of it.

Not a full canopy, more like a half with a horizontal slit at eye level.
Jack Brabham and designer Ron Tauranac ran a full canopy on one of the Brabhams in about 67 but tossed the idea because the canopy was distorting the driver's view. (Practice Monza 1967 Brabham BT24)

Sprint cars and midgets have full roll cages that protect the driver in the event of a frontal impact.
A huge number of drivers are injured in these series that we never get to hear about as well. So unless you have an accurate statistic from a credible source you may just have an inaccurate picture gttouring.


Every safety innovation that is ever adopted is accompanied by a lot of hand wringing and protests.
Early hard crash helmets, then full face helmets, driving gloves - wrecked your feel, fire proof overalls were too hot and heat exhaustion caused accidents, seat belts - it was safer to be ejected from the car than stay with it, HANS devices Coulthard and Barrichello - endless nonsense, Stewarts safety campaign - too expensive would see the end of racing!

On and on we go .....!

Last edited by wnut; 17 Jul 2011 at 07:23.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Jul 2011, 07:28 (Ref:2927603)   #32
Hubble
Veteran
 
Hubble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
England
Bishops Stortford, Herts
Posts: 751
Hubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by emjaya View Post
Yes, a Frank Costin design, I think? I have been trying to remember the name of it.

Not a full canopy, more like a half with a horizontal slit at eye level.
Protos F2...
Hubble is offline  
__________________
Give me the wisdom to know what is right, the courage to change what is wrong, and the bank balance to support me when I can't tell the difference
Quote
Old 17 Jul 2011, 14:21 (Ref:2927710)   #33
Drummer
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
England
Northamptonshire, England
Posts: 84
Drummer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by safc_fan89 View Post
Why not just stop motorsport altogether? Then there'll be no risk at all.

I don't think it is necessary. Firstly, in my opinion it would look ridiculous and secondly, there will presumably be an issue with vacating the car within X seconds. Thirdly...just no. What next, wrapping the cars in cotton wool?
HEAR HEAR! Let's go one further and go back to wearing leather helmets. Hey, why don't we close all the roads and railways, ground all the planes, dig up all the airfields into crop fields and un-invent the wheel. I think we were much better off in the stone age!

Sarcasm aside, I think this could be a very good idea. I mean, if we've exhausted all our options with head and neck protection and so forth, this would probably be the next level. Also, with regards to extraction time, surely some of those LeMans cars are a bit awkward? I didn't hear of anyone moaning about those!

Motorsport is evolving all the time, and I think this is one idea that could work, if it's implemented correctly. Let's face it, you can't get much worse of an idea than "controlling the weather", now, can you? It just shows that not all these ideas are from La La Land!

[EDIT] Idea!: Why not have a device that, upon releasing the belts, releases the canopy too? That would work for the driver. For marshals, I don't suppose an extra button to push would be that horrifying of a thought... Would it?

Last edited by Drummer; 17 Jul 2011 at 14:29.
Drummer is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Jul 2011, 14:50 (Ref:2927714)   #34
JeremySmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
JeremySmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
United Kingdom
Austin Texas
Posts: 11,273
JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
LeMan's cars have doors though, big difference..
JeremySmith is offline  
__________________
McLaren Honda F1 2015... Go Jenson Go Fernando...
Quote
Old 17 Jul 2011, 15:09 (Ref:2927717)   #35
Drummer
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
England
Northamptonshire, England
Posts: 84
Drummer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yeah, little tiny holes, on the SIDE of the car, where you have to bend SIDEWAYS to get out... Not like open wheelers, which have holes on the top, where you go upwards, which is much more natural. If the whole canopy comes off in one big lump, it'll be just the same as always. I understand the point, though. If it's not implemented properly, it'll be a mess. However, if it is, it'll do just fine, I think.

Also, some of those LeMans and sports cars may as well not have doors, they're so awkward. Stock cars are worse!
Drummer is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Jul 2011, 15:19 (Ref:2927720)   #36
davyboy
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
davyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
The issues over extrication are very easy to solve.

o Removable canopies.

o Removable floors.

o Side doors.

o Removable fronts.

o Removable backs.

They've had no need to consider any of these because the driver could be removed via the top [in most instances]... but any of these are very easy to implement.
davyboy is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 10:13 (Ref:2928014)   #37
Lotusonpole
Veteran
 
Lotusonpole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
NW England
Posts: 757
Lotusonpole should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLotusonpole should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Jack Brabham and designer Ron Tauranac ran a full canopy on one of the Brabhams in about 67 but tossed the idea because the canopy was distorting the driver's view. (Practice Monza 1967 Brabham BT24)

Sprint cars and midgets have full roll cages that protect the driver in the event of a frontal impact.
A huge number of drivers are injured in these series that we never get to hear about as well. So unless you have an accurate statistic from a credible source you may just have an inaccurate picture gttouring.


Every safety innovation that is ever adopted is accompanied by a lot of hand wringing and protests.
Early hard crash helmets, then full face helmets, driving gloves - wrecked your feel, fire proof overalls were too hot and heat exhaustion caused accidents, seat belts - it was safer to be ejected from the car than stay with it, HANS devices Coulthard and Barrichello - endless nonsense, Stewarts safety campaign - too expensive would see the end of racing!

On and on we go .....!
Pics of both the BT24 and Protos are on...
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...php?f=6&t=7107
Below the Spitfire pic.

P
Lotusonpole is offline  
__________________
Madness is a normal condition interupted only by spells of sanity.
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 11:15 (Ref:2928033)   #38
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,022
MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
......
A huge number of drivers are injured in these series that we never get to hear about .....!
I usually shake my head at your posts, but this is the most extreme example of self-contradiction yet

I don't suppose it's worth asking you to substantiate it?
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 11:45 (Ref:2928060)   #39
Hubble
Veteran
 
Hubble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
England
Bishops Stortford, Herts
Posts: 751
Hubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by davyboy View Post
The issues over extrication are very easy to solve.

o Removable canopies.

o Removable floors.

o Side doors.

o Removable fronts.

o Removable backs.

They've had no need to consider any of these because the driver could be removed via the top [in most instances]... but any of these are very easy to implement.
LOL.....I'll have some of whatever he's on....

The implications of some of your suggestions on the structural integrity/torsional stiffness of the chassis would be severe to say the least. The only viable one is the removable canopy, which we're discussing already...
Hubble is offline  
__________________
Give me the wisdom to know what is right, the courage to change what is wrong, and the bank balance to support me when I can't tell the difference
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 13:22 (Ref:2928091)   #40
awrb
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
United Kingdom
Birmingham, UK
Posts: 809
awrb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubble View Post
LOL.....I'll have some of whatever he's on....

The implications of some of your suggestions on the structural integrity/torsional stiffness of the chassis would be severe to say the least. The only viable one is the removable canopy, which we're discussing already...
Well it would affect the stiffness and rigidity, but all it would need is a bit of thought and a clever idea. The removable canopy would mean the cars would stay similar to how they are now, but it certainly isn't the only option if you are at least a bit open-minded.
awrb is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 13:38 (Ref:2928105)   #41
davyboy
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
davyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubble View Post
LOL.....I'll have some of whatever he's on....

The implications of some of your suggestions on the structural integrity/torsional stiffness of the chassis would be severe to say the least. The only viable one is the removable canopy, which we're discussing already...
LOL... this is a classic example of what the Chinese call 'frog in the well' syndrome !

There are engineering solutions to accommodate any of my suggestions above using technology available today.
davyboy is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 14:00 (Ref:2928110)   #42
m1fcf
Veteran
 
m1fcf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,062
m1fcf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridm1fcf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tal Aras View Post
The big problem is getting at a driver in the car when it's upside down. Either the car will need a door or every marshals post will need cutting gear and I can't see the teams being too keen on getting the cars back in small bits.
People seem to manage with current series of racers with roofs...

Need a door you say? well, how are the drivers going to get in to it in the first place? I very much doubt they will sit in the car and wait while the canopy is bolted into the chassis around them - I would see either a side or front hinge assembly with some form of quick-release mechanism to separate the canopy completely from the car in the even of emergency access.
m1fcf is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 15:40 (Ref:2928140)   #43
Gingers4Justice
Veteran
 
Gingers4Justice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
United Kingdom
The Big Smoke
Posts: 3,385
Gingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGingers4Justice will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I think the FIA is beginning to lose the plot with this.

No one wants to see anyone die, but does anyone honestly think F1 would be as popular as it is today if it was safe and risk-free?

Racing drivers know what they are doing is dangerous, and for some of them, that's even why they do it. It can seperate the drivers that drive 100% from drivers that drive at 99%.

After the above paragraph, posters will probably do the whole "fine, let's go back to the 70s then" thing at me, but that's not what I want at all. We just need some risk. Much like there's no pleasure without pain, no life without suffering....F1 will slowly become emotionless if it becomes too safe.

The whole idea of spending millions on R&D to slightly reduce the already slim chance of death of 22 drivers who are already taking risks for a living - a very large living for very small risks, I might add - seems a bit silly, particularly when there are far, far more dangerous aspects of the automotive world. I think a Formula One driver is more likely to get hurt of seriously injured when driving to the circuit in his every day roadcar. Roacars are dangerous, and they needn't be. F1 isn't even the first place to start in motor sport. Two drivers were hospitalised by moderate crashes in GT cars at Le Mans this year and you hear of far more injuries in GT cars than you do anything else. The amateurs get the raw deal with safety. FIA, spend your time and money there.
Gingers4Justice is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2011, 15:55 (Ref:2928144)   #44
fourWheelDrift
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,327
fourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridfourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridfourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridfourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice View Post
I think the FIA is beginning to lose the plot with this.

No one wants to see anyone die, but does anyone honestly think F1 would be as popular as it is today if it was safe and risk-free?

Racing drivers know what they are doing is dangerous, and for some of them, that's even why they do it. It can seperate the drivers that drive 100% from drivers that drive at 99%.

After the above paragraph, posters will probably do the whole "fine, let's go back to the 70s then" thing at me, but that's not what I want at all. We just need some risk. Much like there's no pleasure without pain, no life without suffering....F1 will slowly become emotionless if it becomes too safe.

The whole idea of spending millions on R&D to slightly reduce the already slim chance of death of 22 drivers who are already taking risks for a living - a very large living for very small risks, I might add - seems a bit silly, particularly when there are far, far more dangerous aspects of the automotive world. I think a Formula One driver is more likely to get hurt of seriously injured when driving to the circuit in his every day roadcar. Roacars are dangerous, and they needn't be. F1 isn't even the first place to start in motor sport. Two drivers were hospitalised by moderate crashes in GT cars at Le Mans this year and you hear of far more injuries in GT cars than you do anything else. The amateurs get the raw deal with safety. FIA, spend your time and money there.
I agree with a lot of what you say but the suggestion that you are safer in a road car than racing in F1 really won't wash.

You can't really analyse this statistically as the sample for F1 is so small. If you include all F1 racing miles from the beginning of May 1994 to the present you will get a fataility per mile figure orders of magnitude larger than the risk in a road car. If you draw the line at the end of May 1994 you will create the illusion there is zero risk. It's similar to Concorde which statistically went from the (joint) safest airliner ever built to one of the most dangerous at the moment of the Paris crash.

Looking at it from the other side (where we do have a large sample) road fatalities run at about 1.5 per 100,000,000 miles if F1 were as safe we would have one driver killed in a race every 770 years. Do you seriously think F1 is anywhere near that safe?
fourWheelDrift is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Jul 2011, 00:02 (Ref:2928337)   #45
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 14,743
bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!bjohnsonsmith is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by m1fcf View Post
People seem to manage with current series of racers with roofs...

Need a door you say? well, how are the drivers going to get in to it in the first place? I very much doubt they will sit in the car and wait while the canopy is bolted into the chassis around them - I would see either a side or front hinge assembly with some form of quick-release mechanism to separate the canopy completely from the car in the even of emergency access.
Alan McNish eventually got out of the Audi, after his horrific accident at Le Mans this year, using the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnibRyrK-o
bjohnsonsmith is online now  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Closed cockpits gttouring Sportscar & GT Racing 5 27 Mar 2003 21:59
FIA to introduce a 'spy' into F1 cockpits Super Tourer Formula One 25 12 Feb 2003 13:29
A step closer to reality... Gt_R Formula One 4 20 Dec 2000 06:47
Open v. Closed Cockpits...Why? Heeltoe6 Sportscar & GT Racing 4 8 Jun 2000 07:04


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 14:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.