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Old 10 Jul 2017, 17:37 (Ref:3750215)   #991
Richard Casto
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People tend to get hung up on trying to engineering solutions that will solve ALL known and unknown problems current and future. Plus trying to solve using a single solution. For example a common one is... When car is in X position, how will the driver extract himself? That line of thinking has no reasonable path forward if the solution to all problems is always "self extraction".

I am sure we can generate conditions using both the current open and potentially future closed cockpits in which self extraction is impossible. Or rather... would be difficult to do without external help, or requires significant engineering burdens upon the design within the car. The Alonso example is a good one and I think the very recent Pascal Wehrlein Monaco example is good as well. Maybe self extraction in those and other cases may not be the answer?

Combat fighters at 10's of thousands of feet have no "help" when things go wrong. So that is why complex ejections systems exist (explosive canopy release, rocket extraction from the aircraft, automatic parachute deployment, etc.). These cars are designed to race in a relatively controlled environment in which the overall safety goes beyond just the driver and the survival cell. Outside help does exist.

So, design the solution so that the driver can self extricate in the vast majority of common scenarios (including some upside down scenarios). For the exceptional situations in which that may not be easily achieved (car is upside down, large fuel fire and another car or debris is piled on top. Or the car is deeply buried in a tire wall or some other structure. Or even straight up equipment failure of the egress system which prevents the canopy from opening) You should then rely upon alternative safety measures. That may include designs to enable a "shelter in place" strategy until on track help arrives. Frankly I see no other way around that. It is unlikely that any solution will solve all problem. As much as I dislike the non-canopy solutions, they clearly are taking this approach. They are trying to solve for a number of scenarios (generally intrusion from the front) that is less than all of the potential scenarios (intrusion from the top). My beef is that they are not solving for enough scenarios.

And as always... it's good to point out again and again... All of this has generally been solved in other series. F1 loves to pretend they are so unique that their solution has to be unique as well. Just look to other series as to what has worked and what type of extraction scenarios have occurred.

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Old 10 Jul 2017, 18:27 (Ref:3750221)   #992
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Apparently Indycar have caught onto the idea and might be testing the shield soon
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Old 10 Jul 2017, 19:28 (Ref:3750231)   #993
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Worth having a look. I'll wait for real photos of it.
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Old 13 Jul 2017, 10:00 (Ref:3750875)   #994
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Worth having a look. I'll wait for real photos of it.
Would a video clip do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfv6AvnD15A
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Old 13 Jul 2017, 12:37 (Ref:3750904)   #995
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If that is the real deal, from an esthetics perspective it's not bad. Clearly that is a computer generated image. Is it speculation/artist rendering from Motorsports.com (which would be meaningless for the purpose of this discussion) or something more official from Ferrari and/or FIA which may be an accurate representation?

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Old 13 Jul 2017, 12:46 (Ref:3750906)   #996
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I mean, if you have that whole apparatus on the front of the car, surely you don't need to have bodywork under it, right? Would make it easier to get out of there was an open hole under the screen.
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Old 13 Jul 2017, 16:55 (Ref:3750943)   #997
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I mean, if you have that whole apparatus on the front of the car, surely you don't need to have bodywork under it, right? Would make it easier to get out of there was an open hole under the screen.
I suspect they feel they are solving two different problems. For example I suspect they don't expect the screen to do everything the existing safety cell already does. It is just additive and clearly focused nearly 100% on deflection of objects that come directly from the front and not from the top. And even then the drivers will still be still be required to wear a full face helmet (additional intrusion protection). It is rightly using the "defense in depth" strategy with multiple layers of protection.

There is also the practical nature in that it provides structure for attachment of steering wheel, etc. and having the a smaller hole in the structure helps it maintain its overall physical integrity. And lastly... it allows teams to not have to redesign the safety cell ($$$) if new features are additive. Clearly ANY solution will impact aero design.

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Old 13 Jul 2017, 18:25 (Ref:3750966)   #998
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report...-to-try-shield

Autosport with a photo. Still has plastic wrap on it.
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Old 13 Jul 2017, 18:26 (Ref:3750968)   #999
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I'm all about this.
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Old 13 Jul 2017, 19:42 (Ref:3750983)   #1000
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I'll still up for wait for seeing it real, but I hadn't seen that thank you

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEoNQxHW0AESEnR.jpg

]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEoTQaEW0AMGN_a.jpg

I'm all about this.
It's not a bad effort. A bit more tweaking and it could be alright. Again I would still like to see it in context on track, but I recon that could be the sort of thing that is introduced and two races latter it has become normal.

(After loads of whinging or course )

Thanks
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Old 13 Jul 2017, 20:11 (Ref:3750987)   #1001
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Whilst still advocating a cockpit canopy, I'll admit on first sight that doesn't look too bad.

I could even foresee a tear off over frontal section that a driver could reach... wouldn't want to pick up someone else's in a brake duct or side pod though.

It's hard to see how quickly it drops from the front highpoint down to the headrest height. It could offer some protection from horizontal debris coming from off centre too.

I do still have reservations however regarding anything that is coming from above the horizontal, it would only been to be a few degrees above to miss the screen and hit the helmet.


As an aside to safety, it'll be interesting to see how long the team can run it on the car, it looks like it cold push air over the airbox and so seriously hamper cooling.
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Old 14 Jul 2017, 12:11 (Ref:3751128)   #1002
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Looks like an alien from the outside, sort of looks like a sprint car from the onboards
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Old 14 Jul 2017, 12:28 (Ref:3751140)   #1003
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I suspect they feel they are solving two different problems. For example I suspect they don't expect the screen to do everything the existing safety cell already does. It is just additive and clearly focused nearly 100% on deflection of objects that come directly from the front and not from the top. And even then the drivers will still be still be required to wear a full face helmet (additional intrusion protection). It is rightly using the "defense in depth" strategy with multiple layers of protection.

There is also the practical nature in that it provides structure for attachment of steering wheel, etc. and having the a smaller hole in the structure helps it maintain its overall physical integrity. And lastly... it allows teams to not have to redesign the safety cell ($$$) if new features are additive. Clearly ANY solution will impact aero design.

Richard
Sensible comments Richard (as always). One point I would make is that surely, the biggest risk to driver injury is from objects that come directly from the front purely because an F! spends a lot of time moving forwards at a high velocity. At 200 odd MPH something coming from directly above would have (literally) a small window of opportunity to hit the driver.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 20:06 (Ref:3752860)   #1004
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BBC reporting that it will be the Halo that will be on all cars for the 2018 season.

BBC Sport webite
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 20:09 (Ref:3752862)   #1005
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Sources say nine out of 10 teams voted against the Halo, but the FIA said it would become part of the regulations for 2018 on safety grounds, albeit with "certain features of its design" being "further enhanced".
How typically F1.
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