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Old 28 Nov 2013, 19:57 (Ref:3337927)   #1
Bob Riebe
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USCC in 2016 and 2017

Next year, is for all practical purposes a, let's see how this turns out, year.

In your opinion, how do you think the rules for 2015 or 2016 will differ, it they do?
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Old 28 Nov 2013, 21:24 (Ref:3337944)   #2
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Next year, is for all practical purposes a, let's see how this turns out, year.

In your opinion, how do you think the rules for 2015 or 2016 will differ, it they do?

Just some BoP stuff, nothing major until the new rule set in 2017.







L.P.
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Old 28 Nov 2013, 21:30 (Ref:3337946)   #3
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I don't think that there'll be a huge amount of change, but the key is getting the balance correct though.

Here's a question; not meant to start an argument...

What's the general opinion on matching the two cars? For me, I don't expect the two cars to be equal at Daytona. Nor at Sebring. Nor at Mosport or Road Atlanta or Long Beach. I'd expect one of the types of car to have an advantage on one circuit and one on the other. Starworks' private testing showed that this difference wasn't as major as I'd suspected previously, but I'd still expect a few differences.

And I'd be happy that way, seeing the P2 do well at Daytona, and a DP at Road Atlanta, should be an achievement, and consistency over the season would be key. However, from some discussions, including the entrants' comments, I get the impression that some people would rather see adjustments per race to balance the two types of P car to the individual circuit.

For 2015 and 2016, I can't see many changes to the class structure. Personally I'm not a fan of the PCs, but that's not going to change and there's plenty else to keep me interested.

2016/2017 will hopefully see a bit more convergence with ACO rules, but that's a whole other thread...

Thanks for this new topic
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Old 28 Nov 2013, 21:46 (Ref:3337953)   #4
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Some amount of variation, based on the characteristics of the cars, is fine, and to be expected. The bigger sticking point to my mind will be that NOBODY will want to feel as though their type of car is effectively locked out of a top result, especially at the four endurance races: Daytona, Sebring, Watkins Glen, and Road Atlanta.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 15:48 (Ref:3338201)   #5
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The two types of cars have to have the same lap times at every track.

Possibly one type will have a better chance to outrace the other (DPs on speed tracks, P2 on handling tracks) but the lap times have to be the same—otherwise, the race outcome is predetermined. Some tracks only DPs could win, some tracks, only P2. That is not racing.

If only certain chassis types could win at certain tracks, then much of the season’s outcome would be decided when the schedule was made the Fall prior. Basically, at Petit the series would tell who would have a chance to win the championship based on which type of track was more prevalent.

The idea that one track or another would work for only one chassis type or the other might sound okay now, but wait until fans, teams, and sponsors have to face a few races in a row without much chance of winning. Then complaints will surely come.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 18:37 (Ref:3338279)   #6
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The two types of cars have to have the same lap times at every track.

Possibly one type will have a better chance to outrace the other (DPs on speed tracks, P2 on handling tracks) but the lap times have to be the same—otherwise, the race outcome is predetermined. Some tracks only DPs could win, some tracks, only P2. That is not racing.

If only certain chassis types could win at certain tracks, then much of the season’s outcome would be decided when the schedule was made the Fall prior. Basically, at Petit the series would tell who would have a chance to win the championship based on which type of track was more prevalent.

The idea that one track or another would work for only one chassis type or the other might sound okay now, but wait until fans, teams, and sponsors have to face a few races in a row without much chance of winning. Then complaints will surely come.
How is this different from Le Mans and the WEC where the few teams with hybrid technology set-ups - particularly the Audi diesels - have dominated their gasoline-powered LMP1 rivals (what's left of them) for more than a decade now?

Why does this prototype diversity (LMP2's and enhanced DP's) suddenly need to be addressed immediately in the USCC when it (hybrid versus gas-powered LMP1's) has existed in Europe for many years now?

Certain tracks benefit certain cars. For example, it was no secret that in Grand-Am Daytona was a Porsche track and Lime Rock was a circuit that favored the Pratt & Miller Pontiacs and Camaros. That's just the way it is. It will be interesting to see which cars excel at which circuits next year.

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Last edited by ACFlinn; 29 Nov 2013 at 19:00.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 18:42 (Ref:3338283)   #7
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How is this different from Le Mans and the WEC where the few teams with hybrid technology set-ups - particularly the Audi diesels - have dominated their gasoline-powered LMP1 rivals (what's left of them) for more than a decade now.

Why does this prototype diversity (LMP2's an enhanced DP's) suddenly need to be addressed immediately in the USCC when it (hybrid versus gas-powered LMP1's) apparently hasn't been a problem in Europe?

Andy Flinn
But it is a problem. Ever since the diesels came, there were complaints about the balancing of diesel and petrol.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 19:20 (Ref:3338296)   #8
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Just some BoP stuff, nothing major until the new rule set in 2017.







L.P.
Agreed. They need to find a good compromise and stick with it to give teams confidence they have a chance and invest in machinery so there are decent grids until the compromise years are over. I hope they can find a way for DP and P2 to race well so in 2017 there is something worth saving. My other fear is that all classes eventually go to spec tires. In the long run the 2 pro classes should be open tires and fuel IMO.
Personally I hope there is no further diverge from ACO rules long term, a big part of the reason I started following sportscars was that I could see the cars from Le Mans race over here in person.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 20:12 (Ref:3338325)   #9
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Agreed. They need to find a good compromise and stick with it to give teams confidence they have a chance and invest in machinery so there are decent grids until the compromise years are over. I hope they can find a way for DP and P2 to race well so in 2017 there is something worth saving. My other fear is that all classes eventually go to spec tires. In the long run the 2 pro classes should be open tires and fuel IMO.
Personally I hope there is no further diverge from ACO rules long term, a big part of the reason I started following sportscars was that I could see the cars from Le Mans race over here in person.
I agree.

I hope/believe in 2017 we will see TUSC basically aligned with the ACO and run P (ACO P-2 eligible at the least), PC (P-3), GTLM (GT+) and GTD (GT). There will of course be the series distinct BoP differences.







L.P.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 21:25 (Ref:3338351)   #10
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The two types of cars have to have the same lap times at every track.

Possibly one type will have a better chance to outrace the other (DPs on speed tracks, P2 on handling tracks) but the lap times have to be the same—otherwise, the race outcome is predetermined. Some tracks only DPs could win, some tracks, only P2. That is not racing.
In my personal opinion (and I completely respect you having a different one), I couldn't disagree more. My favourite time in any racing in the last decade was the P1 v P2 ALMS races 2006-2008, where the beauty to me was that in some tracks the Audis would win and on some the Acuras and Porsches would be able to beat them.

Personally, I don't much care for championships (which is my problem with the WEC), I watch the individual races for enjoyment and I would be delighted to have a similar situation to that previous era, where the DPs play the role of the Audis and the P2s the role of....erm, the P2s.

One powerful, robust and unbreakable, the other lightweight, nimble but fragile.

With no BoP changes, I think a DP or, failing that, a GTLM would win at Daytona, I don't trust the P2's abilities to last the distance on such a tightly packed circuit (especially if one has the combustable Mazda turbo and the others are driven by Brown and Sharp!).
This obsession with overall lap times doesn't show the bigger picture of races to me.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 00:25 (Ref:3338794)   #11
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How is this different from Le Mans and the WEC where the few teams with hybrid technology set-ups - particularly the Audi diesels - have dominated their gasoline-powered LMP1 rivals (what's left of them) for more than a decade now?

Why does this prototype diversity (LMP2's and enhanced DP's) suddenly need to be addressed immediately in the USCC when it (hybrid versus gas-powered LMP1's) has existed in Europe for many years now?

Certain tracks benefit certain cars. For example, it was no secret that in Grand-Am Daytona was a Porsche track and Lime Rock was a circuit that favored the Pratt & Miller Pontiacs and Camaros. That's just the way it is. It will be interesting to see which cars excel at which circuits next year.

Andy Flinn
I don't know why this has to be repeated: Audi doesn't win time and again because the rules favor them. They win because they're the best team with the best engineering and the best equipment. Having a car that is a world beater is REWARDED in WEC.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 21:24 (Ref:3339040)   #12
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I agree.

I hope/believe in 2017 we will see TUSC basically aligned with the ACO and run P (ACO P-2 eligible at the least), PC (P-3), GTLM (GT+) and GTD (GT). There will of course be the series distinct BoP differences.







L.P.
That seems like the best case, most realistic solution (knowing P1 is not coming back over here). P3 would be better than PC - we would have diversity in the lower P class. P3 will not be eligible for the Le Mans but at least it will be a common rule set with ELMS to allow additional Euro entries at the big races. I would like to see all GTE cars for GT with a Pro class and an AM class like the WEC, but I really don't see that happening with how well received GTD has been. The key to GT will be what global rules are established and if TUSC decides to adopt them.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 21:30 (Ref:3339043)   #13
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That seems like the best case, most realistic solution (knowing P1 is not coming back over here). P3 would be better than PC - we would have diversity in the lower P class. P3 will not be eligible for the Le Mans but at least it will be a common rule set with ELMS to allow additional Euro entries at the big races. I would like to see all GTE cars for GT with a Pro class and an AM class like the WEC, but I really don't see that happening with how well received GTD has been. The key to GT will be what global rules are established and if TUSC decides to adopt them.
They would pretty much have to adopt the GT convergence rules. It would be pure stupidity to take GT/GT+ cars and alter them instead of letting them run as-is. They could put the pro-am class cars on the Conti crap tires like they do now and there would be plenty of separation.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 21:39 (Ref:3339045)   #14
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It would be pure stupidity to take GT/GT+ cars and alter them instead of letting them run as-is.
Like taking GT3 cars and altering them?

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Old 1 Dec 2013, 21:40 (Ref:3339046)   #15
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Like taking GT3 cars and altering them?

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don't think you'll get many arguing with your implication here!
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