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Old 16 Jul 2017, 08:41 (Ref:3751593)   #16
p-matt
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Nitrous! The secret is out!.



I'm sorry but there is no way that car/driver combo is that much beter than the field. No way. Prema are onto.something that the others do not have. Or have not found yet.

Why is it so hard to believe? To be honest, it's Leclerc that seems to be making the difference - Fuoco is nowhere, and Gasly and Giovinazzi weren't that far ahead last year.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 08:41 (Ref:3751595)   #17
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About time Rowland got done for his over zealous defence!
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Hmmm thought it was a little cheeky of him to diss Nato for something he is usually much more robust at!
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 08:43 (Ref:3751596)   #18
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Hmmm thought it was a little cheeky of him to diss Nato for something he is usually much more robust at!


Thought the same. That's racing drivers for you!
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 11:26 (Ref:3751649)   #19
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Why is it so hard to believe? To be honest, it's Leclerc that seems to be making the difference - Fuoco is nowhere, and Gasly and Giovinazzi weren't that far ahead last year.
The body language of the car is different to the others for a start. I feel that in a series where the cars/ tyres are supposed to be the same it isn't possible for a driver to make such a huge difference. The Prema cars were often far ahead last year as well..

I am not saying there is cheating going on but that they have found something that works that the others have not. It was a similar story with ART before and a couple of other teams.

I do believe Leclerc is a super driver however. I am in no doubt.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 11:30 (Ref:3751655)   #20
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Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Yes good to see Rowland finally have the officials take a look at his driving, after forcing King clean off the track and then the same to Markelov. If Markelov had spun and gone into the wall, that's race ban aggression imo. Then the safety car restart, that's definitely not within the required 10 car lengths so should be another penalty coming. But he'll probably get away since he's a title contender. Amazing start though, he got that car perfect off the line. You can't say Rowland isn't trying to win this title.

He's a very fast driver, but yes as you mentioned cds, Rowland should be easily beating Latifi, but he's not. Latifi easily won race 2 while Rowland really struggled. Latifi struggled a lot more in race 1 but he did have a lot more traffic so I think struggled keeping the tyre life. The DAMS car must be the second best car out there, with the RT not far behind.

That other Prema though, Fuoco; 16th and not even close to anyone at all. How do you have two drivers so far apart in the car? C'mon already Prema put someone that can drive in the #2.

I look forward to De Vries not stalling on the grid one of these days, 20th to 7th is pretty good.

Canamasas; bloody hell it must be stressful for Rapax watching him, every time another car comes near him it's near crash. He just can't accept losing a position. 5th and 4th is pretty good, I just hope it doesn't keep him in the series haha.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 21:07 (Ref:3752015)   #21
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correct on Rowland getting another pen but it was for impeding not the 10 cars length. 20 seconds more time added
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 20:16 (Ref:3752881)   #22
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Biscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBiscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If you put a phenomenal talent in a phenomenal package what else do you expect? Especially if there are no other phenomenal talent/package combinations on the grid?

And I mentioned it on another F2 thread re Rowland vs Latifi. Over the past 3 rounds Latifi has outscored Rowland 65-45.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 22:09 (Ref:3752902)   #23
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If you put a phenomenal talent in a phenomenal package what else do you expect? Especially if there are no other phenomenal talent/package combinations on the grid?

And I mentioned it on another F2 thread re Rowland vs Latifi. Over the past 3 rounds Latifi has outscored Rowland 65-45.
Which proves beyond all shadow of doubt there is something not right with this category!

Rowland is infinitely better than Latifi.
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 05:07 (Ref:3752966)   #24
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Which proves beyond all shadow of doubt there is something not right with this category!



Rowland is infinitely better than Latifi.

Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean that you trot out the F2 is rubbish line again. I've said before, F2 is a complex category with lots more variables than F3 or 3.5.

Rowland has his flaws - the over aggressive defending, inability to manage his tyres. Worse still, he's not showing capability of learning from his mistakes. The best drivers are the ones that adapt to whatever formula they're in; ultimately, Rowland's not quite doing that. We saw that too when he dabbled in Formula E a while back.
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Old 22 Jul 2017, 19:13 (Ref:3753576)   #25
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Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean that you trot out the F2 is rubbish line again. I've said before, F2 is a complex category with lots more variables than F3 or 3.5.

Rowland has his flaws - the over aggressive defending, inability to manage his tyres. Worse still, he's not showing capability of learning from his mistakes. The best drivers are the ones that adapt to whatever formula they're in; ultimately, Rowland's not quite doing that. We saw that too when he dabbled in Formula E a while back.
F2 does not have much.more variables. Its all about setting the car up to make dodgy tyres last!

Rowland's is main flaw is hot headedness and he gets a bit rash when the bullshit tyres go off and all his hard work goes out the window but the guy has such natural talent. He doed need to work on maxxing set ups but if you don't have the right engineer or tyres then you ain't gonna win.

The current F2 is not an accurate and consistent barometer of talent. In 12 years how many times have the quickest/most talented drivers won it?

About half at most i reckon off top of my head i can think of:
Rosberg
Hamilton
Glock
Hulk
Grosjean
Vandoorne

A few decent ones came through having not won it but the rest were journeymen benefitting from the best team/engineer/ weaker field that season

In a one make series if you have artificial rules and too much emphasis on one element (in this case tyre enginnering!) it is bound to give a false representation.
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Old Yesterday, 08:14 (Ref:3753700)   #26
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
F2 does not have much.more variables. Its all about setting the car up to make dodgy tyres last!

Rowland's is main flaw is hot headedness and he gets a bit rash when the bullshit tyres go off and all his hard work goes out the window but the guy has such natural talent. He doed need to work on maxxing set ups but if you don't have the right engineer or tyres then you ain't gonna win.

The current F2 is not an accurate and consistent barometer of talent. In 12 years how many times have the quickest/most talented drivers won it?

About half at most i reckon off top of my head i can think of:
Rosberg
Hamilton
Glock
Hulk
Grosjean
Vandoorne

A few decent ones came through having not won it but the rest were journeymen benefitting from the best team/engineer/ weaker field that season

In a one make series if you have artificial rules and too much emphasis on one element (in this case tyre enginnering!) it is bound to give a false representation.
So the list you've made suggests that irrespective, the most talented tend to rise to the top (Leclerc too). And if the "journeymen" that won (as if driver development doesn't happen - look at Markelov) were against weaker fields, then surely there were no talents to win the series? If Rowland can't look after the tyres then I'm sorry that's not good enough, and if he can't race against other drivers cleanly then again, that's his problem. Plenty of other talented drivers have done both successfully. I'm not denying engineers help, they obviously do, but the driver does the driving at the end of the day. It's a very good barometer as it tests an awful lot of the drivers' abilities. The fact Latifi has outscored Rowland over the last 3 rounds is telling imo.

If GP2/F2 has been a false representation then how come most of the champions tend to be quite handy in F1? Rosberg, Hamilton, Glock, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean - all bar Hulkenberg have podiums in F1, and he's rather handy. Even those who didn't win the series but were frontrunners have made impressions - Pérez, Bianchi, Kovalainen, Nasr and even Petrov and Kobayashi at a stretch. Giovinazzi looked quite good too in the Sauber, given his inexperience. Vandoorne is currently swimming, even against Alonso, and what's to say Gasly won't do a better job than Kvyat? As far as I can see, you're taking your argument way too far in this respect. Yes, tyres are a dynamic that obstructs raw pace, but false representation? Not at all...
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Old Yesterday, 09:59 (Ref:3753714)   #27
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F2 does not have much.more variables. Its all about setting the car up to make dodgy tyres last!

Rowland's is main flaw is hot headedness and he gets a bit rash when the bullshit tyres go off and all his hard work goes out the window but the guy has such natural talent. He doed need to work on maxxing set ups but if you don't have the right engineer or tyres then you ain't gonna win.

The current F2 is not an accurate and consistent barometer of talent. In 12 years how many times have the quickest/most talented drivers won it?

About half at most i reckon off top of my head i can think of:
Rosberg
Hamilton
Glock
Hulk
Grosjean
Vandoorne

A few decent ones came through having not won it but the rest were journeymen benefitting from the best team/engineer/ weaker field that season

In a one make series if you have artificial rules and too much emphasis on one element (in this case tyre enginnering!) it is bound to give a false representation.
Nonsense. You need raw pace. You need to be able to learn quick in 45 mins of practice. You need to be able to manage tyres, demonstrate racecraft and an ability to overtake and defend. Drivers that rely on talent and instinct rather than thinking their way through a race are not rewarded. That's the way it should be; that's the way F1 has always been.

In F3 or 3.5, surely there is too much emphasis on qualifying and being able to lead into turn 1? Is that not giving a false representation? I get that you value raw pace in a driver, but it alone is not enough. It's led to underdeveloped drivers - i.e. Rowland's struggles now, Magnussen's inability to manage tyres and generally poor racecraft in his year at McLaren.

If F2 wasn't a reliable barometer of talent, why would F1 teams have their junior drivers in it?

And why do you bother watching F2 if you have such a bee in your bonnet about it?
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Old Today, 11:47 (Ref:3753927)   #28
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So the list you've made suggests that irrespective, the most talented tend to rise to the top (Leclerc too). And if the "journeymen" that won (as if driver development doesn't happen - look at Markelov) were against weaker fields, then surely there were no talents to win the series? If Rowland can't look after the tyres then I'm sorry that's not good enough, and if he can't race against other drivers cleanly then again, that's his problem. Plenty of other talented drivers have done both successfully. I'm not denying engineers help, they obviously do, but the driver does the driving at the end of the day. It's a very good barometer as it tests an awful lot of the drivers' abilities. The fact Latifi has outscored Rowland over the last 3 rounds is telling imo.

If GP2/F2 has been a false representation then how come most of the champions tend to be quite handy in F1? Rosberg, Hamilton, Glock, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean - all bar Hulkenberg have podiums in F1, and he's rather handy. Even those who didn't win the series but were frontrunners have made impressions - Pérez, Bianchi, Kovalainen, Nasr and even Petrov and Kobayashi at a stretch. Giovinazzi looked quite good too in the Sauber, given his inexperience. Vandoorne is currently swimming, even against Alonso, and what's to say Gasly won't do a better job than Kvyat? As far as I can see, you're taking your argument way too far in this respect. Yes, tyres are a dynamic that obstructs raw pace, but false representation? Not at all...
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Nonsense. You need raw pace. You need to be able to learn quick in 45 mins of practice. You need to be able to manage tyres, demonstrate racecraft and an ability to overtake and defend. Drivers that rely on talent and instinct rather than thinking their way through a race are not rewarded. That's the way it should be; that's the way F1 has always been.

In F3 or 3.5, surely there is too much emphasis on qualifying and being able to lead into turn 1? Is that not giving a false representation? I get that you value raw pace in a driver, but it alone is not enough. It's led to underdeveloped drivers - i.e. Rowland's struggles now, Magnussen's inability to manage tyres and generally poor racecraft in his year at McLaren.

If F2 wasn't a reliable barometer of talent, why would F1 teams have their junior drivers in it?

And why do you bother watching F2 if you have such a bee in your bonnet about it?


Rowland does have raw pace and we know he has some sensitivity to what the car underneath him is doing because he is often one of the best guys on cold tyres, a huge skill and example of confidence in itself which not many drivers have. Latifi who I failed to mention I think is pretty good and getting better doesn't seem to have that skill.

Bianchi is an excellent example of a top talent who was unable to get the job done in this series. We all knew he was good enough and his talent wasn't enough to get the job done. But we don't think any less of him. He did not have the right equipment or magic ingredient to get the tyres to last, it was nothing to do with his abilities as a driver, just as I believe is the same problem for Rowland.

Plus I do not see any drivers who took 3 or 4 years to win it as F1 quality talent. Maldonado I once thought was a firebrand but he proved he could not learn from his mistakes and that cost him his career. Being unbelievable on his day wasn't enough. Palmer? Valsecchi, Pantano?

I understand why people will take what they see happening and results as 'fact' but it does not tell the full story, far from it.
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