Is this legal and can it be punished?

SuperDavros · 3 Jun 2003, 13:51 (Ref:619185)

Watching the (new) Mini Cooper race at Knockhill on Sunday and the following occurred:

Penultimate lap, the leader rounds the hairpin and suffers some kind of failure, which means he cannot continue.

Instead of pulling off the circuit onto the grass, (as I did when my gearbox declared independance the day before), the driver stopped just before the entry to the pit lane and stayed in his car.

By the looks, the Marshals had no choice but to red flag the race.

This means that the result was declared from the lap before when he was leading.

Assuming he wasn't hacked to bits by his fellow racers, what would the officials do in a situation like this?

Cheers

Tony Harman · 3 Jun 2003, 14:08 (Ref:619202)

Assuming it was a choice to stop as you describe in order to force the result then my quick answer is that the CofC excludes the driver from the results for dangerous driving. Also they should be reported to the MSA for same.
Motorsport doesn't need that sort of competitor

AndyF · 3 Jun 2003, 14:34 (Ref:619234)

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Harman
Assuming it was a choice to stop as you describe in order to force the result then my quick answer is that the CofC excludes the driver from the results for dangerous driving. Also they should be reported to the MSA for same.
Motorsport doesn't need that sort of competitor

Well said Tony - he must have been a complete Pillock to try something like that. It's sad to see that some competitors have to stoop that low.

(If it did occur as SuperDavros says)

Piglet · 3 Jun 2003, 14:54 (Ref:619252)

Two points:

Firstly PROVE (to the satisfaction of the stewards on appeal) that the competitor deliberately stopped in a dangerous positon with the INTENT to have the race red flagged - tricky I imagine.

Secondly (and more importantly) MSA Blue Book J5.4.4 provides that if there is a red flag at more than the required distance (either 50%or 75% dependant on status) the finishing order is based on the order of crossing the finish line at one lap less...and only cars which are under their own power at the showing of the red flag will be classified. So unless the championship reg's have provided for something different the competitor in your scenario was not under their own power at the time of the red flag so should not be classified.

SuperDavros · 3 Jun 2003, 15:36 (Ref:619300)

Having watched the race from the start, the leading car, (which stopped), appeared to have either a slipping clutch or the driver was slipping the clutch around the hairpin.

Short of the driver being taken ill at the wheel, (he managed to sit there with his foot on the brake...) there appeared to be no reason why the car could not have been manoevred into a safe position.

Interested to hear MSA Blue Book J5.4.4 rule and will double check to see who was classified as the winner.

Either way, I think it has been established as a dip stick thing to do, which is not what the sport is about.
Cheers.

b1ackcr0w · 3 Jun 2003, 15:42 (Ref:619312)

It's a damn shame I couldn't repeat the off the record briefing I was given before the Combe Mini Cooper race - slander/libel laws would come into force. Suffice it to say they weren't complimentary. But if it's of any consolation, it would seem to me that the general behaviour of drivers in this championship has been of note at other circuits. I'd reinforce Piglet's assertion that where action is legal, fair and warranted based upon reliable proof, action is taken.

The antithesis to this (as i'm sure SuperDav will agree) is that often in racing incidents, you don't get a hell of a lot of say when the car goes the way of the pear. For instance there was a very young chap driving a Marcos Mantis in the British GT earlier this year. The car was observed to be in flames coming down the main straight towards post 2 where we were. He got to a gravel trap and promptly speared off into it. We were all for giving him a medal for getting the car to a spot where the gravel put the fire out without much help from us. He was a decent chap and admitted that his decision was mostly based on him bottling out when the fire started licking his boll

! So on a lot of breakdowns, you often find yourself having to give the driver the benefit of the doubt.

terje · 3 Jun 2003, 16:02 (Ref:619343)

It sounds like a brilliantly clever move to me, like something Senna would have done.

AndyF · 3 Jun 2003, 16:04 (Ref:619348)

Quote:

Originally posted by terje
It sounds like a brilliantly clever move to me, like something Senna would have done.

Yes but stupid and dangerous at the same time!

augt · 3 Jun 2003, 18:58 (Ref:619551)

Quote:

Originally posted by terje
It sounds like a brilliantly clever move to me, like something Senna would have done.

Brilliantly stupid more like it. I wouldn't bring down Senna to the offending driver's level. If that driver had been intelligent enough, he would have pulled to the side.

brickkicker · 3 Jun 2003, 19:11 (Ref:619562)

But if he had pulled to one side he would have just been another DNF instead he used his brain and though of how he could win (isnt that what they are there for). Yes it was stupid and maybe dangerous but isnt racing dangerous

terje · 3 Jun 2003, 19:16 (Ref:619564)

I disagree. This chap will do anything to win, and it was spirit and his quick thinking that won him the race.
I agree that it wasn't a safe move but motorsport would be nothing without danger. People who take calculated risks will always shine above the rest i.e. Shumacher, Kimi, Senna, need i go on!

ss_collins · 3 Jun 2003, 19:26 (Ref:619572)

Maybe in F1 that sort of thing has a place but not in club racing - which is a sport. If the act was deliberate then its despicable

brickkicker · 3 Jun 2003, 19:50 (Ref:619600)

I dont think it is that unusual for drivers to try and bring out the reds. IE if someone breaks down in the morning and they just happen to park on the race line with it stuck in gear or on the edge of the gravel. They now that if the reds come on they will get pulled back to the pits straight away and might even get out again in that session.

verglas · 3 Jun 2003, 21:45 (Ref:619716)

Its happened before, with hilarious consequences! Russell Spence in the F3000 Birmingham Super Prix spun on his own very early in the race at a narrow corner. Realising that his car was blocking the track he assumed the C o C would stop the race and order a re-start. Marshals rushed to his aid and tried to push the car away. Spence had his foot hard on the brake pedal. Car did not move. Spence did not see the crane behind the armco, the next thing he knew the car was being hoisted skywards with him wildly gesticulating from the cockpit, on live TV. My how we laughed!!

AndyF · 4 Jun 2003, 09:40 (Ref:620206)

Quote:

Originally posted by verglas
Its happened before, with hilarious consequences! Russell Spence in the F3000 Birmingham Super Prix spun on his own very early in the race at a narrow corner. Realising that his car was blocking the track he assumed the C o C would stop the race and order a re-start. Marshals rushed to his aid and tried to push the car away. Spence had his foot hard on the brake pedal. Car did not move. Spence did not see the crane behind the armco, the next thing he knew the car was being hoisted skywards with him wildly gesticulating from the cockpit, on live TV. My how we laughed!!

Serves him right!!

DSM · 4 Jun 2003, 09:54 (Ref:620226)

From my experience, if you CAUSE a red flag you don't get included when the countback is made. Piglet's right isn't he?

Piglet · 4 Jun 2003, 10:35 (Ref:620283)

Quote:

Originally posted by DSM
Piglet's right isn't he?

She

It's not about causing a red flag, it's about being still running under own power at the time, which you could argue is the same but I think is actually a bit different. So you could punt someone off, their car would cause the red and you would still be running. One would hope with the right reports from Marshals a clerk would have enough evidence to penalise the punting driver in that case.

SuperDavros - do I gather that you don't actually know if this guy was declared the winner???

jamo · 4 Jun 2003, 11:43 (Ref:620371)

We had a double-header race at Oulton on 17th May.

The first race (due to be 25 mins) was red flagged after on lap 17 (20 mins in) after one of the cars went off into the gravel @ Druids and was judged to be in a dangerous position.

The driver of this car was 2nd on the preceding lap, the result of the race was declared and he kept his placing finshing 2nd on count-back !

The second race (also due to be 25 mins) was also red flagged after 12 full laps (just 16 mins in) after the leader went into the gravel @ Druids, with the car again being judged to be in a dangerous position.

The driver of this car was excluded from the result !!

Consistency is everything.

Overall though, the two events above cut both our races that day - not that the first bothered me much as I opted to spin my down Cascades and park my car in the tyre wall at Fosters !!!

EvilPumpkin · 4 Jun 2003, 11:58 (Ref:620391)

Quote:

Originally posted by terje
I disagree. This chap will do anything to win, and it was spirit and his quick thinking that won him the race.
I agree that it wasn't a safe move but motorsport would be nothing without danger. People who take calculated risks will always shine above the rest i.e. Shumacher, Kimi, Senna, need i go on!

So what you're saying is that it's ok to cheat as long as you do it with style?

ss_collins · 4 Jun 2003, 12:14 (Ref:620415)

In F1 maybe, but not in club racing!

EvilPumpkin · 4 Jun 2003, 12:19 (Ref:620423)

Why in F1? What on earth is the point of winning if you did it because you cheated, not because you were the best?

terje · 4 Jun 2003, 12:33 (Ref:620442)

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
So what you're saying is that it's ok to cheat as long as you do it with style?

Its not cheating, its playing the game! There are a lot of tricks you can play to out-wit your opponent, I've seen many such incidents, it's very similar to football; where a player dives and gets a free kick or penalty. At high level football its all part of the sport and its the same in racing.

DSM · 4 Jun 2003, 13:28 (Ref:620558)

No, I do think it's cheating.
Apologies Piglet. I see what you mean about if you caused someone else to go off. Hadn't thought of that. But other than that, surely, if you and your car are, in fact, the reason for the red you can't be included in count back?

DSM · 4 Jun 2003, 13:33 (Ref:620566)

and to take the football analogy forward, it would be like falling over and playing dead in the penalty area, which would be deemed a Professional Foul and warrant a Red Card (As opposed to flag!)
The fact that players get way with diving doesn't make it not cheating.

racingdick · 4 Jun 2003, 18:59 (Ref:620938)

didn't alonso get credited with 3rd when he crashed at brazil and partly cause a red flag...

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