IMSA USCC in 2016 and 2017

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Matt

There were two manufacture bodyworks in the IMSA era of the DP.

Ford and Chevrolet.

Lol the so called "Ford bodywork" is so incredibly varied from the stock Riley one.

[Bob Baldwin]

I am still of the opinion that LOOSE the PC Get the BUGS out of the P3's and replace the PC's with the P3's

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Lol the so called "Ford bodywork" is so incredibly varied from the stock Riley one.

While yes, it had very little modification from the standard Riley bodywork, it was still manufacture specific.

[Matt]

Also, re: LMPC.

Let's see how the cars are at Sebring with the revised package that includes driver aids.

I think you'd still see the same amount of yellows caused by the LMP3 cars if they ran without TCS and ABS like the current PC cars do.

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by Matt

Also, re: LMPC.

Let's see how the cars are at Sebring with the revised package that includes driver aids.

I think you'd still see the same amount of yellows caused by the LMP3 cars if they ran without TCS and ABS like the current PC cars do.

True maybe, but I think LMP3 is more in line with the modern image IMSA desire.

Let's face it, PC cars are dated, and they look it.

An influx of new energy is required for the class like what we are witnessing now with the arrival of gt3 to GTD.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

True maybe, but I think LMP3 is more in line with the modern image IMSA desire.

Let's face it, PC cars are dated, and they look it.

An influx of new energy is required for the class like what we are witnessing now with the arrival of gt3 to GTD.

The FLM09 will be a replaced in PC shortly after the '17 season ('18 or '19). It will be a coupe and it will slot into the performance window that it currently resides in between P and GTLM. I highly doubt it will be a P3 that is selected as the replacement. Maybe something that utilizes like chassis characteristics of them but not an off the shelf P3, similar to the FLM09's relationship to P2 when it was introduced. More likely IMO is a single make 'PC' spec'ed out P2/DPI rules chassis as the replacement.





L.P.

[Matt]

Rotary powered Riley PC.

[chernaudi]

Something like the Ginetta G57 possibly with a de-tuned engine might be the direction that IMSA will be headed in. Especially considering that the new LMPC coupe will have to be less expensive and slower in overall pace than a LMP2/DPI car.

Also, the LMPC chassis is no more or less outdated than the Alpine 450/Oreca 03, which is based on the Courage LC70 that first turned a wheel in late 2005 and first raced in the ELMS in 2006.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Something like the Ginetta G57 possibly with a de-tuned engine might be the direction that IMSA will be headed in. Especially considering that the new LMPC coupe will have to be less expensive and slower in overall pace than a LMP2/DPI car.

Also, the LMPC chassis is no more or less outdated than the Alpine 450/Oreca 03, which is based on the Courage LC70 that first turned a wheel in late 2005 and first raced in the ELMS in 2006.

I do not have any problem with the FLM09 or it's 'age'. It could use a face lift IMO (fresh aesthetics). The 'outdated' comes from it being a spyder when everyone wants/requires a coupe to be in. The new upgrade package could very well make a 'new' class out of them performance wise ( in not being such a yellow maker).





L.P.

[Mike Hedlund]

What part of LMP3 being to slow to replace LMPC do you guys not understand?

If they somehow show a big improvement in pace this year, I'm sure they'll be considered by IMSA. But, they aren't even designed for the pace they need to run in IMSA... so the odds of that are pretty close to zero.

Also, cost containment in new chassis is generally NOT an effective way to go endurance racing. The LMP3 spec as-is won't finish a 24 Hour race, they aren't designed for it.

So, what you're left with is starting with an LMP3 chassis, putting a new motor into it and changing the brake and electronics packages and a bunch of other random things to make it a viable option in a 24 hour race. If you're going through all that trouble, you may as well start with a new cost capped P2 car -- which is what it appears everyone is leaning towards.

-mike

[Bob Baldwin]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

What part of LMP3 being to slow to replace LMPC do you guys not understand?

If they somehow show a big improvement in pace this year, I'm sure they'll be considered by IMSA. But, they aren't even designed for the pace they need to run in IMSA... so the odds of that are pretty close to zero.

Also, cost containment in new chassis is generally NOT an effective way to go endurance racing. The LMP3 spec as-is won't finish a 24 Hour race, they aren't designed for it.

So, what you're left with is starting with an LMP3 chassis, putting a new motor into it and changing the brake and electronics packages and a bunch of other random things to make it a viable option in a 24 hour race. If you're going through all that trouble, you may as well start with a new cost capped P2 car -- which is what it appears everyone is leaning towards.

-mike

Mike : In which areas are you thinking might need improvement to make the P3.s last 24 hours ?

[chernaudi]

LMP3s are more cost capped than the LMPC cars if I remember correctly, and they aren't fast enough in their current form to be a suitable successor. And if IMSA tries to make them faster just by giving them larger air restrictors, we'd run into issues on a larger scale that the LMP2 cars ran into at Daytona, where their reliability is being taxed due to the engines and gearboxes being asked to produce/cope with more power than the original design specs (granted, the DPs had their fair share of mechanical issues at Daytona, too, but weren't quite as crippling on the whole).

And considering that he's raced the Oreca LMPC on multiple occasions, I'd think that Mike knows what he's talking about and what's good and not so good about the current package and what can be improved.

But a coupe successor for the Oreca LMPC will, unless the G57 is being considered as that successor, will almost require a totally new car to meet those goals. But then again, groups like Oreca and Onroak will have LMP2 cars that will be obsolete within the next couple of years (especially Onroak, as the Oreca 05 is legal to the upcoming LMP2 regs with an update kit). They at least will have successful LMP2 designs that can be cheapened up and probably sold at competitive prices than can also do the job.

The Ginetta G57, being taken as a possible mold for the replacement for the current Oreca LMPC cars in concept, might be a template for that successor. It's cheaper than a LMP2 car, is significantly faster than a LMP3, and taking that mold, IMSA can easily get their LMPC replacement. Especially since teams if they are to get rid of the LMPCs in their current form, will want to have a coupe to match with trends in LMP1 and LMP2, with less outlay and the desirable features of the LMPC cars, namely low running cost and a (hopefully) relatively pro-am driver-friendly formula.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

What part of LMP3 being to slow to replace LMPC do you guys not understand?

If they somehow show a big improvement in pace this year, I'm sure they'll be considered by IMSA. But, they aren't even designed for the pace they need to run in IMSA... so the odds of that are pretty close to zero.

Also, cost containment in new chassis is generally NOT an effective way to go endurance racing. The LMP3 spec as-is won't finish a 24 Hour race, they aren't designed for it.

So, what you're left with is starting with an LMP3 chassis, putting a new motor into it and changing the brake and electronics packages and a bunch of other random things to make it a viable option in a 24 hour race. If you're going through all that trouble, you may as well start with a new cost capped P2 car -- which is what it appears everyone is leaning towards.

-mike

LMP3 car already finished 24 Hour race at Silverstone last spring. Not in massively great shape, but are LMPCs finishing 24 hour races in great shape

LMPC-FLM09-Courage-Orecas weren't meant for 24 hour races either (in fact their first one came only in 2014), they were meant for one hour sprint races in 2009 after Oreca modded the old Courages that way.

LMP3s ARE meant to be at that pace (slightly faster than LMGTE), it's just that ACO hasn't particularly cared to up the performance seen so far. They don't have such drastic needs to alter it as IMSA seems to have for some reason.

The IMSA test with the Ginetta was a disaster, but Ginetta itself has been a disaster regardless. That test had nothing to do with reality.

Everything can be modified by BoP. As you know...

The reason they don't want LMP3 into the series is because the teams don't want to spend anything on anything but just have as cheap as it is, and IMSA doesn't dare to hurt their feelings. Plus the exclusive spec business dealing with Oreca.

[TF110]

Rather they just run slower lmp2's while dpi is close to private lmp1 speed. Back to how it was in alms.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

Mike : In which areas are you thinking might need improvement to make the P3.s last 24 hours ?

There is that other race in Florida that is even more taxing on a car's construction.







L.P.

[Deleted]

They could easily set up a guest INV class at Sebring or wherever for LMP3 and have them doing their own thing without policing it (other than maybe turning up the restrictors), see how it turns around. But seeing as these are the same people who refused to even once stack up LMP2 and DP mess before few weeks of Daytona 2014, even though they had year and half to do it, it won't happen.

[BullMan]

Sounds like the LMPCs need new starters more than anything. It was either Ryan Eversley or Mike Hedlund that said the engine improvements had made the starters all but useless. That's why nobody could get their cars restarted.

Also, the "Ford bodywork" for the Rileys was about as manufacturer specific as the slight changes the LMP2 cars see between the two engine makes the chassis accept. Nothing to call it Ford bodywork, no matter how much you think it is. A grille off a 1998 NASCAR Taurus and a couple NACA ducts do not make it Ford bodywork.

[Matt]

The whole nose was different, as were doors, and the tail panel. Similarly shaped to the standard Riley, but they were different.

Let's compare.



Anyway, you said that there was only one DP manufacture specific bodywork...there wasn't. You couldn't get the Ford stuff without having the Ford engine, as you saw with the BMW powered Highway to Help, Starworks, and RG Racing cars(RG Racing having bought MSR's originally Ford-bodied DP, if you remember correctly).

[chernaudi]

The Riley Ford and standard bodywork is largely the same, aside from headlight shape and intercooler intakes in the doors, turbo intakes in the rear fenders and exhaust exits in the rocker panels.

Not exactly the most adventurous of redesigns. Though the Ford bodywork also got much more aggressive dive planes than the standard did, too.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Matt

The whole nose was different, as were doors, and the tail panel. Similarly shaped to the standard Riley, but they were different.

Let's compare.



Anyway, you said that there was only one DP manufacture specific bodywork...there wasn't. You couldn't get the Ford stuff without having the Ford engine, as you saw with the BMW powered Highway to Help, Starworks, and RG Racing cars(RG Racing having bought MSR's originally Ford-bodied DP, if you remember correctly).

Looks so similar as to not even matter.

[Deleted]

Oreca 03 and 03R have more differences than that "OEM bodywork"...

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

The FLM09 will be a replaced in PC shortly after the '17 season ('18 or '19). It will be a coupe and it will slot into the performance window that it currently resides in between P and GTLM. I highly doubt it will be a P3 that is selected as the replacement. Maybe something that utilizes like chassis characteristics of them but not an off the shelf P3, similar to the FLM09's relationship to P2 when it was introduced. More likely IMO is a single make 'PC' spec'ed out P2/DPI rules chassis as the replacement.


L.P.

For 2018/2019 there will be lot of Ligier P2 (the current ones) available.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Looks so similar as to not even matter.

So are you trying to convince us that the Ford specific bodywork was simply a run what you brung situation? Sorry, it had to be homologated with IMSA, period!









L.P.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Chiana

LMP3 car already finished 24 Hour race at Silverstone last spring. Not in massively great shape, but are LMPCs finishing 24 hour races in great shape

LMPC-FLM09-Courage-Orecas weren't meant for 24 hour races either (in fact their first one came only in 2014), they were meant for one hour sprint races in 2009 after Oreca modded the old Courages that way.

LMP3s ARE meant to be at that pace (slightly faster than LMGTE), it's just that ACO hasn't particularly cared to up the performance seen so far. They don't have such drastic needs to alter it as IMSA seems to have for some reason.

The IMSA test with the Ginetta was a disaster, but Ginetta itself has been a disaster regardless. That test had nothing to do with reality.

Everything can be modified by BoP. As you know...

The reason they don't want LMP3 into the series is because the teams don't want to spend anything on anything but just have as cheap as it is, and IMSA doesn't dare to hurt their feelings. Plus the exclusive spec business dealing with Oreca.

How dare you bring logic and sound reason, WITH FACTS, into this discussion.

Don't you know that one garbage test, with a crap setup, and poor drivers behind the wheel is the basis for sound judgement?

[chernaudi]

Indeed, the differences are relatively few to the untrained eye, and the Riley parentage is very obvious (though the differences do stick out once you know what to look for). Fact still is that Ford had to pay IMSA to approve the bodywork changes, even if it was a warmed over Riley body kit. No payment, no incentive for IMSA to approve and (re-) homologate the bodywork.

Granted, Ford probably didn't feel the need to pull a GM and design a body based on one of their road car's designs, or they probably felt that especially with the huge dive planes they were allowed to run that the Riley body suited their competitive needs.