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Old 29 Nov 2017, 12:00 (Ref:3784014)   #31
GeoffR
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So (without looking up detailed results) has he matched the start win/ratio of 101 wins from 150 starts that A Moffat achieved with the Trans AM Mustang? To me that would be the GOAT, given it was against Jane, Geoghan, Beechey all with different makes/models, unlike today.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 12:07 (Ref:3784015)   #32
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So (without looking up detailed results) has he matched the start win/ratio of 101 wins from 150 starts that A Moffat achieved with the Trans AM Mustang? To me that would be the GOAT, given it was against Jane, Geoghan, Beechey all with different makes/models, unlike today.
youve been very restrictive with your conditions, excluding big chunks of his career. The fact that you have done that suggests you already no the argument is weak

4 is much less than 7
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 12:11 (Ref:3784016)   #33
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[QUOTE= is much less than 7[/QUOTE]

But quality does not always equal quantity .......
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 12:18 (Ref:3784017)   #34
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But quality does not always equal quantity .......
quality is impossible to compare over periods of time.

The only think we have to compare is quantity
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 12:36 (Ref:3784020)   #35
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You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 12:42 (Ref:3784021)   #36
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You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?
Im not missing your point, your point is irrelvant to the discusion.

7 beats 4. all time is bigger than a short period of that time
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 13:03 (Ref:3784024)   #37
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You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?
You can't tell me there were 150 ATCC races in 5 years, back in '69-'74. Because the stats relevent to Mr Whincup, only count championship races.

For what it's worth, Whincup won 28 races in one chassis, across 3 seasons, not including wins when other chassis were used in that same timeframe. I'm curious to see what the start:win ratio is for that particular car.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 13:26 (Ref:3784029)   #38
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I don't think you can say of anyone that they are the Greatest of All Time. The greatest of their era, certainly, because you're comparing equal playing fields.

However, the phrase 'Among the Greatest of All Time' is indisputable.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 15:14 (Ref:3784054)   #39
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quality is impossible to compare over periods of time.

The only think we have to compare is quantity
So basically you're saying that if Joe Bloggs wins 10 Hyundai Excel championships, he is the GOAT touring car driver because the only THING (not think) we can compare is quantity.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 18:04 (Ref:3784096)   #40
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I don't believe that different eras can be accurately compared statistically, as there are too many other variables in the mix beyond the raw numbers.

For example, in my view Moff's Transam Moostang was the greatest touring car we've ever seen here, relative to its opposition - but that view is subjective and any stats don't allow for regulations, closeness of competition etc across different eras.

There can be no definitive, correct answer one way or the other on this but it's an interesting pub (or forum) discussion.

For mine, J Dub is high quality but his head explosions at Bathurst make it hard for me to rate him as GOAT. I can't see other "greatest" contenders throwing away potential victories at the mountain the way that he has.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 20:43 (Ref:3784144)   #41
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So basically you're saying that if Joe Bloggs wins 10 Hyundai Excel championships, he is the GOAT touring car driver because the only THING (not think) we can compare is quantity.
what a daft argument. I think you are trolling
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 20:48 (Ref:3784145)   #42
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I still think it's Lowndes, though the comparisons to NASCAR's Gordon/Johnson are surprising. It's worth noting that Lowndes lost five entire years of his prime in his aborted single-seater career, and then in those god-awful 00 Motorsport/early-days FPR cars, while once joining 888 Whincup has had more than an uninterrupted decade with the best car on the grid- once you factor this in, I'd put him above Whincup by a whisker for modern-era drivers. (how many wins does Whincup lose if you effectively zero out his late 20s?)

If, theoretically, Lowndes had abandoned his F1 dreams and stayed with HRT through 2003 I'd think you'd be talking about a few more years before Whincup beat Lowndes' record of race wins.


(also my personal choice is Jim Richards, but hey, different era)

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Old 29 Nov 2017, 21:12 (Ref:3784152)   #43
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(also, Lowndes is clearly the Rossi (or Jeff Gordon) of F1- say what you want about their respective driving abilities, but Lowndes was a transformative figure in the sport, and a huge personality- Whincup has more wins but he's like the Lorenzo type who's far more anonymous to most fans- the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison couldn't be more apt in this case)
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 21:32 (Ref:3784157)   #44
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I'm still keen to hear what makes you think Rossi is the GOAT of Motorcycle Grand Prix racing?
you ask this question because you think someone else is the GOAT. making it possible someone CAN be the best ever. We think alike.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 21:50 (Ref:3784160)   #45
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(also, Lowndes is clearly the Rossi (or Jeff Gordon) of F1- say what you want about their respective driving abilities, but Lowndes was a transformative figure in the sport, and a huge personality- Whincup has more wins but he's like the Lorenzo type who's far more anonymous to most fans- the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison couldn't be more apt in this case)

agree with you on the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison, often thought that about the two of them
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