FF1600 conversions

[JR Ewing]

I think we saw CONCLUSIVELY at Combe yesterday, via Messrs Mills and Parsons, that converted RF00 and RF01 chassis will never be a match for Van Diemen RF90s and RF91s, and Swift SC92 to SC95s.

The rules for 96 on with regards to sidepods and all the attendant aero drag and weight of these cars will always make them slower in a straight line no matter how much better they corner.

[formulafordster]

Then CONCLUSIVELY at Mallory park the next day when gavin wills Won the second race bay an inormous margin to Peter Daly's well sorted Reynard, Wills led the first race also but retired because of overheating. Wills; car is also a RF02, not an RF00 as previously thought.

[JR Ewing]

Ahhh, but Gavin is a night and day better driver and is not at the times being recorded in the period 1995 to 2001 or so...

[formulafordster]

Wills can do 48.6s, not a million miles away. Kestenbaum surely would be of similar ability? he was no where near.

[Tony_Simpson]

Until people start beating the lap records (Jamie Spence at Mallory is it??) then that car and driver set up is proven to be better. Yes I know they are works cars with works drivers.

Its swings and roundabout really, the older cars have all the setup data and built for the engine and to use treaded tyres, but they are getting a bit old now (repair/materials wise), worse areo, torsional ridgidity, etc.

whilst the newer ones have better drag/aero figures, wider track, better torsional ridgidity, and are fresher chassis (again materials wise). they will suffer from the fact that the cars are not designed to use treaded tyres and there for the setup data is not readily at hand.

In the end it will come down the who has the most money, and who can drive. It would be nice to get a works driver to play in both types of cars and get a true comparison. IMO

[darcym]

I think there is much more to it than that.

I think it depends on the car chassis RF90/01 Swift 92 etc etc, the driver, and how good the conversion is.

eg: if a great driver put in a good laptime in an RF90 and then swapped to an RF01, I personally don't think it would make much of a difference over 1 or 2 laps as a good driver can cope with small niggles. However a race distance and pace is more telling than a "lap record".

Also I wonder how much difference the quality of the conversion, and setup, the newer cars arn't designed for Kent engines or as Tony said treaded tyres.

Having said all that, it was a joy to watch the RF90 and Swift92 battle on Sunday I think if anything it is proof that in the right hands they can more than compete.

[formulafordster]

I think its more a case of the Zetecs just not being there development wise. I think that very soon they are gonig to start to take large chunks off lap records.Its just a case of adapting the setup to the tires.A new chassis is always going to be better than an old one, over time they just soften up. This is coupled with the wider track and a stiffer chassis anyway.

It must stop because when there is more info availiable and they are sorted you are gonig to have to have one to be competitive. This means that we will have regional Zetec championships running alongside Kent championships, with exactly the same cars! just different engines. What is the point? We may as well have one or the other.

Wills is already going quicker this season in his RF02 than his swift, and its got miles of development to go. I knnow he would be at the front anyway, but thats not the point. It has to stop before it gets out of hand

[JohnMiller]

Originally posted by Tony_Simpson
whilst the newer ones have better drag/aero figures

I'm not so sure about that with the sidepod rules for later cars.

[Tony_Simpson]

Yes the newer cars have a larger frontal area but with the knowledge that the designers would have gained they should have a lower drag figure.

I expect that they newer cars generate a little downforce with the sidepods (as far as I remember they are slightly groundeffect style), so again it is swings and roundabouts with it all.

[JR Ewing]

Think the pods are a deffo disadvantage, they are huge flat-bottomed barges...

[formulafordster]

The advances in chassi design, not to mention damping and the gains made elsewhere in the aerodynamics easily outweigh the large sidepods.

[kartingdad]

I think a point to note is that the class keeps up to date as regards appearance. Old cars tend to look a bit dated and tend to be kept not as nice looking which leads into a downward spiral as far as a professional approach is concerned. Newer cars look better for sponsors (HA!) and engender better preparation.

No matter how careful you are, older cars get flakey paint on the chassis, the alloy parts corrode blah de blah..

I'm not saying it should all be new cars, but don't knock em.

[JR Ewing]

I'm not knocking them at all, I just think the sidepod regs since 96 mean they just can't go that quickly. I think even Gavin realises that it's no quicker than his SC92 but perhaps he's hoping to sell some conversions??

[formulafordster]

Well round Mallory it IS quicker than his swift was, At Combe he is still slightly slower, but hes onlt tested there once! We need some way to distinguish between kents and Zetecs (apart from engine!). Having the same cars as Zetecs is Bull***t. I tell you what JR, go onto the Vee thread and see if you can pursuade them to start using new FF chassis too!

[formulafordster]

If Kents is dying, this will not help. Look at from an outside point of view. I can race Zetecs with slicks and 150hp or I can race kents for the same price, same chassis and 110hp!? We need one or the other or have a difference between then, i.e. chassis and engines.

[darcym]

swings and round abouts on the costs.

eg: a zetec engine doesn't need a rebuild as often, however a front wish bone costs 3 times as much as a non zetec chassis. They (for me anyway) are 2 seperate entites, and I am not a fan of the conversions eg: kent cars ended in the mid ninties (so I understand) then zetec became the national formula ford....and cars started being developed for zetec championships, thats where the kent cars should end (on the entry list) when zetec took over as the main championship should be where the kent chassis "class" ends.

If you have a zetec chassis why convert it to kent ??? surly it is easier (and less expensive) to go and race it in a zetec championship ? and there cannot be much pleasure in beating kent chassis knowing you have far better machinery ? I know if I entered a championship and won it (dreams do happen) I would feel a lot better winning it in a kent against kents, than a zetec against kents. I do enjoy this topic there are so many points of view.

[Barny]

Perhaps there should be a cut off date for Kents, say up to 1995 it worked well for a while for the pre'90 championship.

Lets face it Kents are a classic class now keep Zetecs as a seperate class, people can choose which they race.

[Séamas M.]

If we're not talking about races/championships specifically for classic cars then why have a date cut-off for an entire class? One of the options intended for Formula Ford from the start, and still available should anyone wish to try it, is to design/build your own car.

Well, it worked for Adrian Reynard!

[formulafordster]

There should be a cutoff because the stopped building them! Can you do the BARC FRenault championship in a carbon-tubbed Tatuus?

[formulafordster]

If someone wants to design a new car, race it in Zetecs!

[kartingdad]

Whats to stop a manufacturer designing a new chassis just for ff1600?

[formulafordster]

Whats the point? its not a current championship, to be fair its a classic championship. People do not design new cars for VSCC events do they? FF1600 should be a low cost formual, newer cars raise the game, and the budgets.

[kartingdad]

So if I write my chassis off, I've got to buy another old one, and not an identical new one? A new model of chassis will cost about the same as a new replacement chassis from say, Swift.

[formulafordster]

to draw off what i said earlier on this thread, if a BARC Frenault driver bends his chassis, can he go and get a brand new carbon Tatuus?

FFord is supposed to be on relativly equal terms, new cars make a mockery of this.

Having rich people come in and dominate this way is madness. Gavin Wills spent 20k on his conversion, which was a brand new 02 car from VD. If we use the same chassis in Zetec as well as FF1600, kents will just die because there will be no point in racing the same cars with less power, which are more expensive to run.

Not only this, its a sporting aspect, do you enter stock hatch in a brand new Focus RS against 2.5GTIs, gofs etc? of course not, because its not sporting. People like this must be stopped, these new cars are giving them an easy loophole.

Every single S of Mids 'Kent' Driver wants it to stop. Similar in fact to the mono guys wanting a certain team manager to take his works car away.

[JR Ewing]

Is gavin' really an 02. I can't see much point as he'd have to retrofit 00 uprights and brakes and the chassis are almost the same anyway.
Has he got £20k then to invest? If so, he MUST be looking to do conversions for punters to get his cash back.
I have the idea that it was not quicker than his 92 but he might need to try a bit more to make it appear so...
I don't think we should make any age caps as, contrary to some opinions, FF1600 is not a classic class and, if it becomes, so that would be the beginning of the end of it.
I still think the cars are no quicker than VD 90/91 and Swift 92 to 95s but people must relaise that the newer cars are run with the highest budget, the best engines, and the best drivers.
KartingDad, Mr G?, I think you should check the cost of a new Swift chassis (£2,500??) to a Van Diemen Zetec one (£5,000?)...