In english please!

Monstrobolaxa · 22 Jan 2006, 18:57 (Ref:1506861)

Hi everyone....

I'm trying to find out what the name of the application, from the link, in english?

I'm trying to find a shaft with that "extra square" on it!

R59 · 22 Jan 2006, 19:06 (Ref:1506866)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monstrobolaxa

Hi everyone....

I'm trying to find out what the name of the application, from the link, in english?

I'm trying to find a shaft with that "extra square" on it!

You mean a shaft machined with a keyway. Or a "keyed shaft".

Al Weyman · 22 Jan 2006, 19:25 (Ref:1506881)

Its called a Woodruff Key

REALIST · 22 Jan 2006, 19:31 (Ref:1506884)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Its called a Woodruff Key

No it's not. A woodruff key is semi circular on the back and usually used as a secondary location on a taper.

The illustration is a standard square shaft key.

Al Weyman · 22 Jan 2006, 19:47 (Ref:1506891)

How can you tell what the back is like from that shot? Its a woodruff key I say. :-)

Dave Brand · 22 Jan 2006, 19:51 (Ref:1506893)

Quote:

Originally Posted by REALIST

The illustration is a standard square shaft key.

Being really pedantic, the key shown appears to be wider than it is deep, so it's a rectangular or parallel key, not a square key.....

......I'll get me coat!

graham bahr · 22 Jan 2006, 21:20 (Ref:1506931)

Quote:

Originally Posted by REALIST

usually used as a secondary location on a taper.

sorry got to disagree there, in automotive applications at least it apart from steering box drop arms and diesel injector pumps most keyways are on straight shafts.

i believe the correct term were all looking for is a "machine key"

graham bahr · 22 Jan 2006, 21:22 (Ref:1506934)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

How can you tell what the back is like from that shot? Its a woodruff key I say. :-)

looking at the pic again i cant help but agree Al

Monstrobolaxa · 22 Jan 2006, 22:39 (Ref:1506972)

Thanks guys....

Now another question! My though is that I will have to weld a woodruff key on a keyed shaft! right? Or can I find this already done?

**dtype38** · 22 Jan 2006, 23:12 (Ref:1506992)

No the key is not welded on. The "fit" of the key in the shaft can vary. If it is a "clearance" fit it will be slightly loose and you'll probably need a dab of grease to keep it in place, and preferably keep it on top of the shaft, while you fit the collar/pulley. If its a "tight" fit (not the correct engineering term, but I can't remember it off hand) then it should just knock into the shaft with a soft mallet and stay there by itself. If its and "interference" fit, you'll need to cool the key and warm the shaft up to get it in, then when the temperatures equalise it'll be in for good. :-)

REALIST · 22 Jan 2006, 23:44 (Ref:1507011)

DIN Standard 6888 covers Woodruff keys and gives details of all standard sizes, including the radius of the curved back and the height of the segment. It also confirms that it is normally used for positioning rather than transmission, unless the key is very large in relation to the shaft. e.g. a key 10mm long, 4mm deep would only be used for transmission on an 8-10mm diameter shaft.

If the shaft were, say 30mm in diameter, you would be looking at a 30mm x 13mm key, much deeper than a parallel key would need to be.

You can see that that is not a Woodruff in the pic because a Woodruff comes to a sharp edge as it emerges from the keyway, being a segment of a circle. You wouldn't put a Woodruff on the end of a shaft like that either.

As for being square or rectangular, Parallel keys can be square or rectangular. I appreciate we are only looking at a schematic but, taking the depth of the key into the shaft and the depth of the keyway in the bore, that's square.

graham bahr · 23 Jan 2006, 00:38 (Ref:1507023)

it should be noted that the point of these keys is only to locate, not take the drive, its quite common now days for car manufactures not to use keys at all, if they have some other means to align shafts and sprockets etc, whatever goes on the shaft should be clamped tight by someother means.

i have seen many a worn crankshaft and pulley due to the front pulley nut only being nipped up in the false belief that the key does the driving

ian.stewart · 23 Jan 2006, 05:56 (Ref:1507060)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Its called a Woodruff Key

Deffo not a woodruff key, woodruff keys are never cut into the open end of a shaft, For me its a parralell key, or it was when I did my time as an engineer.
Ian

zefarelly · 23 Jan 2006, 09:56 (Ref:1507131)

woodruff keys are for location only, as an example Lambretta and Vespa both uise them on the crankshaft to position the flywheel ( magneto ignition, therefore position is important) the weight of the flywheel means its strength in position is by torquing the bolt up as the shaft and flywheel boss are tapered and therefore lock.

that picture is a parralel key way, oftern seen on shaft drives with a taper lock pulley ( think giant pumps/motor drives ) there is a standard for keyway size and Shaft diameter, but the name escapes me at the moment.

I can't remember everything !!!

StephenRae · 23 Jan 2006, 10:21 (Ref:1507145)

Select a file of the correct width, gouge out a matching keyway until bored or totally knackered, assemble on shaft, bang in the tang of the same file, break it off....job done....Judging by the thread starter's name this is the sort of advice he is looking for

Alan Raine · 23 Jan 2006, 10:52 (Ref:1507161)

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Select a file of the correct width, gouge out a matching keyway until bored or totally knackered, assemble on shaft, bang in the tang of the same file, break it off....job done....Judging by the thread starter's name this is the sort of advice he is looking for

Still keeping the engineering skills up then Steve!

zefarelly · 23 Jan 2006, 11:02 (Ref:1507174)

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Select a file of the correct width, gouge out a matching keyway until bored or totally knackered, assemble on shaft, bang in the tang of the same file, break it off....job done....Judging by the thread starter's name this is the sort of advice he is looking for

did you do an apprentiship at British Leyland per chance ?

http://gallery.slacker.com/albums/tb...comics/sst.gif

Alan Raine · 23 Jan 2006, 11:27 (Ref:1507196)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zefarelly

did you do an apprentiship at British Leyland per chance ?

http://gallery.slacker.com/albums/tb...comics/sst.gif

I see you have discovered the 'Fine Tuner"

Dave Brand · 23 Jan 2006, 12:09 (Ref:1507265)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

I see you have discovered the 'Fine Tuner"

aka 'Birmingham screwdriver' - or, to those of us who served our time in Yorkshire, a 'Manchester screwdriver'.

StephenRae · 23 Jan 2006, 16:21 (Ref:1507413)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

Still keeping the engineering skills up then Steve!

Hello Alan...Haven't seen you since you were on TV looking suitably surprised while the Fuzz explained the nuances of vin numbers

It is good to see you are rebuilding the PRS...a few of the Classic guys may be turning out in the NW so you would be in good company....any further technical tips you may need, all from the 'Rock Ape' school of enginooering...feel free to ask...Steve.

Alan Raine · 23 Jan 2006, 18:32 (Ref:1507507)

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Hello Alan...Haven't seen you since you were on TV looking suitably surprised while the Fuzz explained the nuances of vin numbers

You saw that as well - My 10 minutes of fame.

Trying to get the PRS sorted out. The engine is in Andrews garage waiting to find out if the crank that Brian Mullarkey gave us about 15 years ago is still crack free. The gearbox is sitting in my garage gathering dust on the floor. We'll get there eventually!

Will try and get to Oulton or Anglesey this year just to say hello if nothing esle!

R59 · 23 Jan 2006, 21:12 (Ref:1507628)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian.stewart

Deffo not a woodruff key, woodruff keys are never cut into the open end of a shaft, For me its a parralell key, or it was when I did my time as an engineer.
Ian

Have you never removed the flywheel from a Briggs & Stratton engine?
There's a woodruff key in there.

The drawing, being a solid rendering, does not show any detail in the keyway, which could be cut with a semi-circular depth groove for a woodruff key.

And they are used for drive, unless they are used for location, when coupled with a tapered shaft (a la Villiers 2 stroke), then done up f tight.

If it were a parallel key, they are usually coupled up with a retainer of some type, such as a nut/washer on the end of the shaft to stop them coming out.
Quite often, parallel keys have a lump on the end (for whacking it with the official club hammer)

dtype38, I think the term you were looking for was "Engineering Fit", which is how it was explained to me by my machine shop lecturer. Clearance fit would rattle, Engineering Fit fitted with no appreciable slop, and interference fit needed to be clobbered with a ruddy great hammer and a drift!

Rob.

Al Weyman · 23 Jan 2006, 21:23 (Ref:1507634)

The harmonic balancer on a V8 Chevy engine fits to the end of the crankshaft with the help of a Woodruff key. The piece is a tight fit and it is recommended to warm it a bit then give it a tap on using a heavy piece of steel against it to protect it from damage. The actual bolt holding it on (well it doesnt actually it is the shrink fit that is holding it on) is a weak little 5/8 UNF bolt and I suspect it is more there to help you turn the motor over with a spanner than anything else.

Dave Brand · 24 Jan 2006, 09:47 (Ref:1507901)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racing59

The drawing, being a solid rendering, does not show any detail in the keyway, which could be cut with a semi-circular depth groove for a woodruff key.

It shows an open-ended keyway, which is never used with a Woodruff key.

Monstrobolaxa · 24 Jan 2006, 12:02 (Ref:1507974)

Ok so now a second question!

Does anyone know a site online where I can buy a keyed shaft....metric?

Or....does anyone have a 15 mm (diametre) keyed shaft? ....I only need a 20 cm long shaft! It will be cut in 2 to make a part I need for a prototype I'm building for the Shell Eco Marathon! My budget is only 500 euros...I'm a privateer...when my university for example has spent over 40thousand euros in the last 4 years....so if anyone has a keyed shaft the can give me? (I'll pay the postage)

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