24h Nürburgring/VLN

[TF110]

That's sad, the vette was pretty good. I'm sure given more time it would have taken the lead. Maybe another round of pit stops would have helped them. Good first effort though, only 2 seconds off the fastest lap.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by TF110

That's sad, the vette was pretty good. I'm sure given more time it would have taken the lead. Maybe another round of pit stops would have helped them. Good first effort though, only 2 seconds off the fastest lap.

The two Manthey Porsches were 2.5 and 1.5 seconds faster on their best lap. They were lapping at 15 and 5 seconds faster at race pace; that’s an eternity in an endurance race. Christian is good, but not that good, short of mechanical problems or a race incident he was not going to catch the Manthey cars. That’s what 80kgs and a smaller restrictor does, it makes a faster car slower so you can obtain the result the SRO wanted. Hohenadel should switch to another marque next year, maybe an R8, Z4, 911, or the new SLS if he wants a realistic shot at any SRO sanctioned championship next year, he could win in any car (providing its not BoPped out of competitiveness), he is that good.

[Speed-King]

I am not convinced that the problem lies with the Corvette.

Manthey is an absolute powerhouse with decades of experience on the Nordschleife. To think that they could go out with the Vette and win it in the first race would be pretty unreasonable. As much as I wanted to see that, it was most probably not going to happen. Heck, Phoenix have been racing the Audi at the Ring for almost two full seasons now and scored one measly victory, and that was when Manthey's lead car DNF'd...

maybe an R8, Z4, 911, or the new SLS

Hohenadel/Arnold were faster than all the R8s, Z4s and the SLS... and faster than most 911s.

[kyoung]

It’s the car or the driver; there is nothing mystical about it. Manthey win because they have fast drivers and fast cars. I would categorize Hohenadel as a fast driver and as good as any in the Manthey team, in the FIA GT3 sprint races he remained out front as all other Corvette drivers fell further back into the pack as the weight/restrictors got the better of them. Parisy/Lambotte two very good drivers have been relegated to also rans in the Corvette, they will be lucky to hold second place in the GT3 championship now. Like I said, there were 4 different marques with faster cars than the Vette at Algarve; the winning car was seventh fastest overall. Give Hohenadel the car he had at Paul Ricard and he could have beaten Manthey.

[Speed-King]

It’s the car or the driver;

And the pit crew, set-up data for possible every weather, a bespoke Nordschleife suspension from KW, Michelin developement tires, Porsche developement parts...

That's all stuff that is not Porsche-specific, but rather Manthey-specific.

Over the last few years, Manthey have had a winning ratio of something around 60 or 70% at the Ring. Beating them is the exception - even more so this year, now that they have two front-running cars.

[kyoung]

Callaway can develop a working setup too, what they can’t overcome is engine restriction and more weight.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by kyoung

Callaway can develop a working setup too.

Not in one race on a 25 kilometer track.

BTW, Manthey are whining at least as much as Callaway about unfair penalties and how badly they are treated by the stewards.

And, then, the set-up is not everything. Now, if Callaway had the Michelin developement tires and something like Weissach behind them to support them with upgrades...
As I said, even Audi have fared remarkably poor against Manthey, and they have thrown their DTM-teams at it...

[kyoung]

Well until recently The R8 was rev limited in GT3 spec, if you noticed at Algarve there was a lot of R8s up front, they just need some drivers of Hohenadel’s caliber.

[Speed-King]

The Audis only got rev-limited at the beginning of this season and yet they only won one race in 2009, either.


The one thing I fail to understand in this suppossed Anti-Corvette-Conspiracy is: WHY?

What would the FIA/Bernie/Jean Todd/Ratel/SRO/VLN/ADAC gain by driving out the Corvettes?? That's just not rational.
And in cases like this, I tend to believe that it's down to incompetence rather than malice.

Just think about the outcry from all the other brands there would be, if the Corvettes had stayed in FIA GT3 their early season spec! They have won the championship with one round to go, what else do you want to see?!

[kyoung]

I’ll go with incompetence. Trying to manufacturer close racing by adjusting the rules throughout the season is ridiculous.

Test/balance at the beginning of the year and don’t touch the cars balance after that. If teams at that point don’t think they can be competitive they have the choice of not running. Success ballast is idiotic, get rid of it completely. Make up their minds, is GT3 for semi-pros or a combination, closer scrutiny of driver talent and adjustment to driver pairings at the beginning of the season will make for closer racing. Stable rules make for better racing.

All season long Chad and Prospeed cried about the Corvettes performance, well they got what they wanted, they are now faster except their incompetence still keeps them off the podium. A huge group of Audis leaps to the front (too little, too late) and Corvettes head to the back of the pack, yep incompetence. The SRO is a cluster-****

[Speed-King]

Trying to manufacturer close racing by adjusting the rules throughout the season is ridiculous.

It's been a standard procedure in sportscar racing pretty much for the last three decades, though. I recently watched some Trans-Am races from the mid-80s, and even back then owners were whining to the cameras for more or less restrictions...
There must be provisions for not getting the balance right at the beginning of the season, otherwise, by the time the year is over you might end up without a series left. Similarly, the right to adjust performance during the year is a (somewhat) effective way of deterring teams from spending silly money on car developement once the season is underway or from hiding upgrades until that point.

[kyoung]

That’s why you rigorously test and lock in the cars at the beginning of the season. There should be no upgrades or development allowed on the current years car. The whole point is equalization, if a car dominates it indicates the testing method was a farce, it requires competence, something the SRO does not possess.

[Speed-King]

it requires competence, something the SRO does not possess.

Who has that competence, then?

I don't think that parity can be achieved through pre-season testing by anyone as there are just too many variables outside of human control; this year being especially bad with lots of rained out sessions.

And then, some cars are better suited to certain tracks than others, but to take that into account, you'd pretty much have to have equalisation tests at every track the series is going to run on, which is simply not viable.

Pre-season testing can only ever give you a rough baseline...

[Simmi]

If anyone is interested here is a bit of the Merc in action and the incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DMlktSGudw

[kyoung]

Choose a test track that exhibits a little bit of everything, elevation changes, twists and a long straight, let each marque select a non participant driver to test all cars. Test the most successful cars from each marque from the previous season and balance them…done. Hell, you could add to the interest of the preseason with the testing sessions and balancing. Keep it open and transparent and it could work.

The method they use now is idiotic, normally you race to see who is the better driver has the fastest car, this series rewards losers and punishes excellence. If your car is already the heaviest and slowest, how much more weight should be added for your competitor’s incompetence? And the problem extends to other series too, like the ADAC where Corvette is not even close to top in points, or the FFSA. Let’s face it, the SRO could set rules for honest competitive racing, but they seem to thrive on contrived drama and in my opinion that is why they suck so badly.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Simmi

If anyone is interested here is a bit of the Merc in action and the incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DMlktSGudw

Thanks for the link; Dumb move by the Merc, a little more than optimistic, nice recovery by Christian though.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Simmi

If anyone is interested here is a bit of the Merc in action and the incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DMlktSGudw

What a stupid move by Schneider, Mercedes should really stay in the DTM..sports car racing requires smarts they don't have.

Ugly car too..ugh. Can't wait for Haug to complain about something and demand "fairness" (which translates to bending the rules as Mercedes sees fit..)...can't be long now.

[manthey]

i'm searchin for pics of #168 coronel porsche with the towing hitch on the rear,any help please?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by manthey

i'm searchin for pics of #168 coronel porsche with the towing hitch on the rear,any help please?

You'll have to look for pics of the car on the grid, during the race they ran without the hitch...

[manthey]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

You'll have to look for pics of the car on the grid, during the race they ran without the hitch...

thanks,do you have any website to suggest me? on ring1.de & vln no pics...

[Speed-King]

Schubert will have the BMW factory drivers Jörg Müller and Dirk Adorf in one of their Z4s at the next round - might or might not be an indication of the Z4 being next year's weapon of choice for BMW's assault on the 24 hour race...

[kyoung]

Will the mythical beast be in GT3 4.4L spec? It should do well under SRO sanctioned events, if it doesn’t they can just keep increasing the displacement until it does. I don’t know how well Google translated the FFSA website, but I think Graff will run the SLS AMG GT3 next year, can’t say I blame them.

[Speed-King]

Since it's a Schubert car, I am pretty sure it will be the 4.4...

[Speed-King]

Two SLSs on Saturday. One for Jäger/Haase and one for Schneider/Mamerow - looks like there might be something behint the Mamerow to Mercedes rumors that we've been hearing for most of the season.

[kyoung]

So two battering rams then; will they be complete with brush guards and off road lights?