why oh why couldn't they leave this alone?

[rustyfan]

Why, just why, couldn't they have left this alone?

Moore suit going back to court

By CP (Toronto Sun)

Greg Moore's wrongful death lawsuit will be back in a U.S. court later this year or early 2004. Lawyers representing Moore's estate filed an appeal earlier this summer arguing the wrongful death lawsuit resulting from the Maple Ridge, B.C., driver's fatal crash in 1999 shouldn't have been dismissed.

The brief, filed with the Riverside, Calif., County Court of Appeals, names Championship Auto Racing Teams and California Speedway Corp. as defendants. The appeal is an attempt to overturn an earlier decision by a lower court to dismiss the suit.

Moore, 24, died when his car crashed into a wall during the Marlboro 500 at California Speedway.

Lawyers representing the Moore estate maintain the death was caused because when the car left the course, it skidded on grass in the track's infield and slammed into a concrete wall that was void of any energy-absorbing material.

As much as I miss seeing Greg Moore out on the track (he was my favorite CART driver), I think this is BS. Greg would turn over in his grave if he knew what was going on. He knew the dangers and accepted the fact that every race could be his last.

But I guess where there are lawyers smelling $$$ (and making sure relatives get to smell it too), there will be lawsuits...

[BootsOntheSide]

Couldn't agree more. Greg knew the risks when he took to the track (with a broken hand, remember) and accepted them. Greedy lawyers are behind this, not a fight for jsutice or trying to learn lessons form a death which was, sadly, the kind of thing which does occasionally happen, and no amount of protocols could change that.

[sgjb]

I really have mixed emotions about this. Too often changes are made after someone is seriously injured or killed. This leads me to believe that people can be somewhat negligent prior to these accidents. Although drivers know the risks, it is unforseen by them areas of tracks that may need work. It is not their jobs to check every aspect of every track, they are paid to drive. CART and the Tracks are the ones responsible for making sure things are safe for all. With the new changes at Fontana Greg's accident would possibly be less devastating as his car probably would not have flipped over prior to the concrete.

Most people will probably be offended by this lawsuit but who are we to say what we would do after such a tragic event.

If someone had told you that that your son could have been alive today, if a little more thought had gone into the safety of an event. Maybe you too would sue, at least it would help effect change and not allow people to be negligent in trying to provide safe surrounding. If they were never responsible, tracks would not be as safe as they are today. Sitting back and using a defense that the driver knew the risks, is no reason not to continously work on safety at every event.

[racefanatic]

They're taking it too far... I mean, I understand the whole safety issue, but couldn't they just stop trying to drag it out even further?

[macdaddy]

I'm not even going to go near the topic of "fault" here. No "he knew/they knew" or any possible motives. It's not my place to speculate. (Although sgjb's post was a good one).

But I gotta tell you what I'm thinking, in all respect to Greg Moore and his family,

A suit like this could snowball to the point where every track in America can no longer afford insurance. And it's a very fragile time in CART's history for this to resurface. I believe that the OWRS bid distinctly states something about "impending lawsuits".

It's sad to have to bring up a lost one's name to talk about things like this.

[Snrub]

Moore was my favorite driver too. The reason was simply because he had so much unrealized potential.

I really wonder about this one... Are Greg's parents associated with CART after Greg's death. I'm surprised they'll do this or let it happen.

[gttouring]

its more than knowing the risks, it was living the life and Racing as a passion, it was not a one off skydiving accident, it was a professional choice which has inherent dangers every time you sit and drive the cars, Moore should be left in peace, and we should honor him and not belittle his sport or his chosen profession by making it liable or culpable for any death that can happen, it is Racing not pie baking, when a stove explodes because the gas was on and the pilot light wasn't and all the gas caught in the kitchen throws blueberry and chef all over the house, that is wrong full death of the crappy oven manufacturer not a Champcar pilot crashing and never thinking he would die...
lawyers have ruined so much of our lives, while good attorneys defend and try to make it safer...

[Flatspot]

Originally posted by sgjb If someone had told you that that your son could have been alive today, if a little more thought had gone into the safety of an event.

I'm not picking on this sgjb's post at all, just using a quote to make a point,

If you go back and analyze virtually any accident, of any nature, you will find that it could have been prevented if someone had thought about the possibility of the accident happening the way it did beforehand. You can have a league of the best minds in the world thinking about racing safety, however, if you put people in cars that go 240mph eventually, some way, some how, somebody is going to get killed. It's the nature f the beast.

It's sad but it's time to move on. I think the courts will uphold the previous decision.

[Ian-S]

Originally posted by sgjb
If someone had told you that that your son could have been alive today, if a little more thought had gone into the safety of an event....

Not picking either but...
Considering that his car hit the wall, upside down, at 200+ mph, snapped in half and... (well, I won't go there) but anyway, I don't think a pile or tyres, poly boxes, or even a SAFER wall would have made any difference to the end result, at those speeds, in that situation, you wouldn't stand a chance.

All this lawsuit opens is old wounds.

[ElScOrChO]

But the problem came before he got launched.

Anyways, who knows if he would still be alive if there
was tarmac inside the back straight.

RIP Greg

[Mal]

This sort of thing is very worrying as was the prolongued Senna enquiry, as in the long term it has the potential to destroy the sport we all love.

As has been said in virtually all fatal accidents if something had been different then the life may have been saved. This therefore potentially leaves all cases open for the lawyers.

[indycool]

The attorneys for CART and California Speedway will argue for the waiver, which everyone signs. It has been upheld in other cases. In fact, I believe the biggest case where it was upheld was also in California, the Clay Regazzoni case from an accident at Long Beach.

[sgjb]

I wonder if when it says Greg's estate it means Greg's family or something different. The rumor floating up here is this is driven by his insurance company. They have paid out alot of money and if you know insurance companies they try to mitigate their damages by suing. They sue on behalf of the claimant it's their right. This happens all the time so I wonder who is driving this lawsuit.

[Brian W Keske]

This isn't new ya know. The estate of one Mark Donahue did the same.

It's easy to say don't sue regarding someones death if you are not close to the situation, as the family are.

If they are sueing on behalf of the estate, does that mean the estate has not been settled? And is it fair for the family to be burdened in this way if the insurance company was unable to fully benifit the estate?

All I'm saying is it is easy to judge from this distance. But it is interesting that the timing of the suite comes prior to CART being officially sold-off.

[Jordi]

I'll talk about Greg on October 31st, thank you very much. I remember the driver, not the crash.

[sgjb]

I agree Jordi. I will be going to Fontana as I beleive it will probably be the last CART race there for sometime. Feels like the right place to be on that date.

[gaines]

If someone had told you that that your son could have been alive today, ...

If he didn't race for a living

We have lost many great superstars and legends before they ever got to live out the fullness of their lives because speed, when combined with an accident, can result in death. These men and women who drive race cars are of the bravest nature. Anyone who would take a car into a corner at the speeds they do and trust a piece of rubber to catch them enough to shoot them down the straight is unbelievably brave. However, our fallen hero was not the first to die in a race car. He knew the possibilities and risks. He may have very well been the greatest Champion of all time if he lived to race another day but he didn't. We can't change that now. All we can do is our best to make certain it doesn't happen again but eventually some freak thing will happen and we'll watch another hero buried before their time. It's always been apart of racing and it always will be.

[indycool]

Many great racers have left us before their time, at the start or height of stellar careers. Bobby Marshman, Jimmy Clark and Ayrton Senna come to mind in this category along with Greg.

[dirtfan]

Maybe this kind of lawsuit might get track owners to thinking about possible safety improvements. The old hay bales lining road courses were a lot safer than the stacks of tires tight against immovable crash walls - while the hay was accelerating, the car was decelerating; with the tires, the car is accelerated backwards while the driver is still going foreward. I've seen this happen to a NASCAR driver at the Glen, and a Supermodified driver at Phoenix.
Move the tires out from the wall, or lay down earth mover tires like they do at the saturday night "bullrings". Every foot the tires slide means one more foot of decelaration for the car.
But then, I only got a "C" in physics, so what do I know?

[Muzza]

I would like to second Indycool for remembering Bobby Marshman, someone that left us just too soon. Quite a shame that today so few know how talented he was. Those that do remember him can only wonder - as for many other great ones that perished before fulfilling their potential - "what could have been"... As I will always miss Stefan Bellof, regret the many World Championships he did not have the time to win.

I am surprised that Ten Tenths members from Canada do not cherish the memory of Peter Ryan as often as he deserves. Ryan was an amazing driver, of outstanding car-control skills: he won the 1961 Canada GP (non-championship race) first time out, at age 21 (!) and, as a shooting star, collected many victories in his splendid, but far, far too brief, career. Ryan passed away in a Formula 2 accident in Reims in 1962, just a month after his twenty-second birthday.

What a loss.

[Tim Northcutt]

That list also could include Eddie Sachs....who also died in the Marshman crash...incredible driver....

[Tim Northcutt]

Sorry for the brain fade guys...Dave MacDonald died in the Eddie Sachs crash, not Bobby Marshman....

It's been a long month...and it's only half over...

[indycool]

Tim, that was road racer Dave MacDonald, in his first "500", that passed away with Eddie Sachs. Marshman, I believe died in a tsting crash at Phoenix.

[Tim Northcutt]

You must've been reading my first noe while I was writing the second one....MacDonald was driving one of the Mickey Thompson cars that they took tin snips to the fender wells to make them "open wheeled cars" that would conform to the rules...

Dave MacDonald also was a solid driver....

Marshman did die in a Phoenix test

[Muzza]

Six points:

1.) About lawyers and lawsuits, I recall the reply from a very, very successful one (Executive Vice President for a major multinational corporation) when I argued that a certain issue we were facing “was only a matter of common sense”. To what she just replied “Muzza, we lawyers do not believe in common sense.”

Against these words, any argument is futile. Poor mankind. Sometimes I think we don’t deserve this planet.

2.) In my opinion, no person involved in a motorsport accident should sue another party for the consequences of a racing accident, no matter the circumstances involved, unless negligence, bad faith or incompetence can be proven. Also, the burden of proof should lay on the accuser (as it usually happens in Europe). It should not be up to the defendant to prove his/her innocence (this is a simplified presentation, but it stands).

By engaging yourself in motorsport activities – as a participant, a spectator, a marshal, an official or in any other role -, you recognize that racing is a dangerous activity, with serious, life-threatening risks to your health and to those under your responsibility (as your children and other legal dependants). If you decide to participate, you willfully understand that you and your associated parties are exposing yourselves to these risks – and that you are the only party responsible for any consequence outcoming from this engagement, unless negligence, bad faith or incompetence of another one can be proven (by you).

Any lawsuit of another nature is frivolous and should be dismissed as such.

3.) Talking about frivolous lawsuits, this was the outcome of the claim by the so called “Greg Moore Estate” against CART and the California Speedway. “Greg Moore Estate” lawyers took such a slap by the judge that it was practically impossible to build a case for an appeal.

As hinted by Brian Keske, I also believe that Greg Moore’s family is not involved in this suit, at least directly (Greg’s dad is a true racing man and I would be astonished if he is meddled in this). As usually practiced by insurance companies in the case of “high risk individuals” (racing drivers, airplane pilots), the compensation in case of death or injury is not available in a single check. Instead, the beneficiaries receive a portion of the payment only. The remaining amount is to be reverted later in one or more installments.

This is used by insurance company to buy them time to sue other parties for compensation, and reduce cash-flow implications of these expensive desimbursements arising from death or injury of a “high risk individual”. Now, with CART’s future is (still) hanging in the air, is the last opportunity for these parties to see some green back into their pockets... If CART folds up altogether, they may have a problem to explain to their, ahem, shareholders.

4.) Ok, so you want a lawsuit. What if CART or the California Speedway counter-sue the “Greg Moore Estate”, accusing Greg of racing against medical recommendation (he was oriented – but not prohibited – not to race, as he had broken his wrist two days before in a moped crash in the paddock when he t-boned a car. I vividly recall these events) and of being “unnecessary aggressive on his racing practices, driving his car beyond the limits of the machine and of his own skills, and exposing his peers, the track officials, safety personnel and spectators to unbearable and life-threatening risks”?

I for one could witness that Greg was driving far too hot – as I wrote in this Forum in the past. As I was astonished by the aggressive way he was driving, trying to make up for having started the race last, I was paying attention to him. I was mouth-opened to see Greg going four-wide on the main straight and three-wide on Turns 1 and 2. I am a ocular witness, I had my eyes on him. Seconds later...

5.) The American legal system is one of the reasons that is making me consider moving to Canada.

6.) In a nutshell, this is utterly disappointing.


Muzza