Audi LMP1 Discussion

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.lemanslive.com/24h-mans/2...jours/?lang=en the launch of the R18 is planned for December 10 and Audi has already started track testing its new car.

Which means that we will see the first spy shots on monday

But it will be interesting to see

[JAG]

That's a Michelin site right, they are confirming the R18 is a coupe and will test in the US before Christmas.

[chernaudi]

Hopefully these questions will be answered soon:

1: How much of the 908 has gone into this car.

2: How much of the old Bentley has gone into the R18, and

3: Will the R18 be left hand drive like all previous Audis (including the R8C).

Also, hopefully the wide tire deal will be answered too, as well as powertrain questions, and what will be in store for the R15 for next year as well.

[rich07]

If the new Audi is indeed a coupe I hope it looks something like that photoshop up the top of the page cause that looks awesome! We'll find out soon enough...

[TF110]

I've seen another photoshop of the R15 with a roof, it wasn't the plus though, and looked much better than that. I do wonder how it'll compete though (R18) with the Peugeot as a coupe. I think that was Peugeot's big thing, besides it's front aero. That may not be their secret to success, but it was their signature IMO.

[Acid09]

Peugeot's biggest leverage was the engine, not the aero. The 908 was pretty conservative in terms of aerodynamics compared to the R15.

[gwyllion]

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsnov10.html confirms that the R18 will be presented on December 10 and that it will be diesel powered.

[gustavobamba]

Is there any spy pic of the car??

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Peugeot's biggest leverage was the engine, not the aero. The 908 was pretty conservative in terms of aerodynamics compared to the R15.

Agreed, although the front end on the 908 proved to have great downforce on the front tires with grip

I still can't believe that there is NO more info about this car right now or any spy shots...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Peugeot's biggest leverage was the engine, not the aero. The 908 was pretty conservative in terms of aerodynamics compared to the R15.

That is still suprisng when it's diesel vs diesel and a restrictor formula.

OT, It makes you wonder if the petrol Toyota and Acura engines will have a significant advantage over Judd etc.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JAG

That is still suprisng when it's diesel vs diesel and a restrictor formula.

OT, It makes you wonder if the petrol Toyota and Acura engines will have a significant advantage over Judd etc.

Will Judd make a specific engine for this year?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by CTD

Will Judd make a specific engine for this year?

I think they'll carry the DB over for LMP1, for P2 they have a new BMW-based engine codenamed HK (announced some months ago).

As for the Audi... what can I say? Looking forward to Friday, it should be interesting to compare it to the shots we have so far of the 90X. Especially if it turns out to be a coupe.

[chernaudi]

Peugeot's big advantage has been low-speed front end mechanical grip. Aero has very little to do with it, as the Audi R15 in 2010 had better aero for ALMS/LMS type tracks. However, that still killed the straightline speed of the car at Le Mans and elsewhere.

If you have good mechanical grip, like the old R8 had, it makes up for a lack of aero--how many times have damaged R8s won races? At Portland in '04, the R8 that won there basically had the nose knocked off the car, but it still was faster than the Dyson Lolas. The answer--the front diffuser wasn't damaged, and the car had considerable mechanical grip.

I think that Audi got derailed big time by the aero guy on the R15 and had to go on a wild goose chase instead of sticking to what worked on the R10 and especially the R8--fairly conservative aero and loads of mechanical grip. I hope that Audi has reverted to this philosphy on the R18, because Peugeot used it on the 908, and look at how successful it was/could have been. Even Acura on the ARX-02 did so--it had conservative areo (aside from the diveplanes and front end treatments) and the wide tires to optimize mechanical grip. Little wonder why Audi is re-engineering the R15 to run wide fronts and the rumors that the R18 and 90X have been designed around such tires as well.

[TF110]

You say the Audi had this and that, yet every race besides LeMans, they lost to Peugeot this year. If it's mechanical grip that you speak of why wasn't this sorted out from the get go? I don't think it's just due to grip, aero plays an important role in grip period. There's only so much you can do with suspension to increase tire grip, the rest is aero, and the diffuser is aero. Like I said, it seemed to me that Peugeot had the superior car, in terms of engine and aero.

[chernaudi]

Pruett has sources at Audi that since Le Mans have said that the R15's big issue is low speed front mechanical grip. Orginally, the R15 lacked rear mechanical grip, and it seems that the changes at the rear have shifted the balance to the rear as far as grip.

Why else would Audi be spending so many (OK maybe not a lot-Audi probably have already tested the wider tires early in the year) of resources to upgrade the R15 for a race or two, and that Audi and Peugeot have been rumored to have gone with the wider front tires for their new cars?

Also, the R15 never ran the J-Damper/Inerter Damper that the 908 used. It's either go with the J-damper, or run wider tires. If that's the case, either Peugeot think that the J-damper will work on the wider tires, or have been aware of the issues it's caused, and want to run a more conventional suspension setup. Or maybe the R15's zero-keel front suspension didn't work as well as the Acura's due to running normal tires and wheels.

What I'm wondering about is why, if Audi has tested the wide tires on the R15, why didn't they run them aside from worrying about the issues that the Acura had--that the tires weren't really designed for the job and had temperature issues as far as coming up to temperature faster.

[TF110]

A good question. Perhaps Audi saw something they liked then on top of it didn't like. Perhaps something was different in their tests or whatever in the tire issue or front suspension issue. Maybe the design of their car wouldn't work with the j-damper. Or maybe the wider front tires would have too much of a negative affect on speed, or the rear? I guess they saw something that wouldn't make much of a gain.

[chernaudi]

I think it goes back to the Acura issues. Acura had to use basically the same tires f/r, because Michelin never really made purpose-built fronts. The problem there is that once up to temperature, the front's offered excellent grip. But that was the problem--it took forever to get up to temperature.

The rear tires are designed to have a construction that mostly has to stand up to torsion incorporated into them by the rear axle. Front tires have to have more flex in the sidewalls to heat up and to deal with the transverse torsion that the steering subjects them too. The Acura's "front" tires lacked that give, which had the effect of a lack of damping (even low profile LMP tires act like a spring), as well as the ability to function properly.

It's easy to believe that Audi had similar issues, and that they'll hopefully be solved with purpose made wide front tires. As I said, maybe the zero-keel front suspension works better with wider front tires, as the R15 has a lot of weight up front as well, similar also to the Acura (and applies to the new cars, as with the shorter wheelbases and more compact engines, the weight will automatically move forward).

[TF110]

So it seems logical that next year the cars should run wider fronts to cope with the different weight distribution? I would think so wouldn't you? Around twisty tracks I remember the Acura could set good comparable lap times to the Audi but yeah, it took about 3 or 4 laps.

[msd76]

Did anyone else spot "On 11 / 12 June, the voltage will be at its peak for the Bavarians" in Audi's press release ?. Not much of a give away was it.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Agreed, although the front end on the 908 proved to have great downforce on the front tires with grip

I still can't believe that there is NO more info about this car right now or any spy shots...

Think you've gotten your cars crossed. It was the original R15 that had front downforce load related tire issues. This was one of the primary issues with the car. Peugeot has never had that issue.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Think you've gotten your cars crossed. It was the original R15 that had front downforce load related tire issues. This was one of the primary issues with the car. Peugeot has never had that issue.

I know that. I was saying that the 908 with it's conservative aero compared to the R15 still had loads of mechanical grip in the front.

The Audi drivers had said multiple times that the R15+ was lacking some front end grip which I thought was odd considering the aggressive aero the front had

[clkgtrlm1]

Does anyone know if the R18 launch is going to be televised or web-casted?

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by clkgtrlm1

Does anyone know if the R18 launch is going to be televised or web-casted?

Doubt either, but that would sure be nice

[TF110]

You know it'll be on every major motor sport site. Autosport Motorsport LeMans sites, etc. So you'll see pictures galore of it, at least.

[Victor_RO]

Relatively cryptic message from Marshall Pruett on Twitter...

Looking forward to Audi's R18 launch tomorrow. A wholesale change in concepts for the team with the new car. Very cool.

Well it's definitely sparked my curiosity.

EDIT: And a response a few minutes later all but confirms that it should be a closed car.