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Old 31 Jul 2017, 00:42 (Ref:3756223)   #101
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The money thing has long been a debate/ discussion: rich gentlemen have long funded racing while factories have and have not in turn, and to varying degrees ... but there have always been some wealthy people who wanted the thrill or racing, or to be part of racing, and their cash has pretty much always been essential to the sport.

I cannot remember a lot of eras when factories provided the bulk of the funding. Even with Audi propping up ALMS and the ILMC/WEC, without the P2 and GT privateers ....

What we need is more rich Arabian Gulf families ... that's where the excess cash seems to be nowadays. England, France, Russia and the U.S. have all been bled dry. China .... well I think racing, and even widespread automobile use, is to new and to centered on practicality or prestige for sports cars to be a big thing.

They seem to be much more of an electronic rather than a mechanical populace.

But I see no reason why some rich person with money to burn might not want to cut a deal with Ferrari for motors and tech support, stuff them in Dallara chassis, and rule P1 and dictate the rules change.

Red Bull's Dietrich Mateschitz actually would be someone who has the cash and the passion.
This cycle of IMSA has a ton of OEM money in it. They had 14 manufacturers on the grid a Daytona, all of which pay to play. They finally have sponsors beyond the the auto industry and team owners too, which is always a good sign.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 00:52 (Ref:3756224)   #102
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Unless he pulled RB out of F1 (probably not going to happen), Herr Mateschitz probably won't do too much with sportscars though he seems to be wanting to get more road racing/sportscar racing at the Red Bull Ring that he's now the owner of.

But seeing as his company already endorses Audi Sport in DTM, as well as Mark Webber and Seb Buemi in the WEC, I'd argue that Red Bull is kinda already there.

But you have to also remember that outside of OEMs, there's not a ton of corporate sponsorship in road racing, especially outside of IMSA. The last really serious non-OEM or non-automotive sponsorships in road racing in an ACO formula was Infineon with Joest, and later Champion, Audi Sport UK and Goh. As well as ADT with Champion, Velox with Audi Sport UK, Casio with Goh, the litany of sponsors with Racing For Holland. And Thetford and Norcold with Dyson Racing. And Lowes with Adrian Fernandez' programs.

But since then, sponsorship has been dominated by OEMs and automotive sponsors in road racing. Most of the non-automotive sponsors have gone into NASCAR and maybe touring car racing.

Sadly, in the top class, OEMs have been the only ones who've been willing to dump the sponsorship money into the series. And there doesn't seem to be much incentive for non-OEM, non-automotive product sponsors to be there.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 03:29 (Ref:3756237)   #103
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LMP1, where do we go from here?

Simple - you stick a fork in it. It's done.

As for LMP1 Privateers, like whom? All we've heard is talk about Ginetta's new car's testing development. We have no idea who is supposedly going to race them. We know even less about Oreca and Perrinn. The field in next year's Le Mans is going to be alright with cars which don't exist yet for teams we know nothing about eight months before they are supposed to be racing?

And why would privateers spend the sort of money LMP1 commands when they weren't before now, and while have LMP2 where you can win and have the rich guy paying the bills actually driving (can't do that in LMP1 in most cases, Bronze-rated drivers aren't allowed to race them), and you know if you get lucky you might win Le Mans there anyways? If Porsche had spent five more minutes in the pits this year the Jackie Chan DC boys could have stood on the top step of the podium. Knowing that an LMP1 is strictly limited to the WEC, which is gonna have a harder time justifying its existence now.

People need to remember that the ACO has been a major beneficiary of VAG money for nearly 20 years, and had the GT1 boom before that to make their fields fat and budgets big. 2018 is going straight back to 1994, and 1994 didn't have a WEC to drive the costs up, not to mention Porsche pulled a fast one on Toyota then. (The more things change, the more they stay the same....) How does the ACO intend on expanding the WEC's top category without manufacturer money? I'll be surprised if next season isn't Toyota's last. Peugeot made it clear they were a no show without big cost reductions and the proposed new rules won't deliver much, if any, of that. So, who is going to step up, and who is going to spend the money to replace the nine figures VAG was throwing into the WEC and Le Mans?

The way I see it, the ACO has two options, neither of which they will like one iota but neither of which they can do much about now:

1) Accept DPi into Le Mans and level any LMP1-L challengers with them, run them heads up and see what happens OR

2) Scrap LMP1, slow LMP2 and speed up GTE so that Ford, Corvette, BMW, Ferrari and Porsche could win Le Mans with their GT cars and perhaps you draw a few more in (McLaren above others) to go for it?

Option 1, obviously, is easier. But having dealt with all of the ACO's garbage towards them in the 18 months before this year's Rolex 24, if I were in IMSA's position I'd tell the ACO what they want to do and say take it or leave it. Plus God only knows the ACO's bosses wouldn't know what humility is if it slapped them in the face, and the 'not made here' force is going to be strong in this move. Still, it puts GM, Honda/Acura, Mazda and Nissan in the hunt to win Le Mans in 2018, and I doubt any of them above would pass it up. This would propose an issue the WEC, though, as all of the above efforts are run on North American marketing dollars.

Option 2 is harder, but more likely to get WEC manufacturer money. But it also would have the benefit of probably making it easier to sell GTE cars to both new entrants and perhaps other series. But allowing the LMP2s to run heads-up with the GTE boys raises its own set of problems, perhaps best shown by what happened to the Risi boys at Le Mans.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 04:00 (Ref:3756239)   #104
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LMP1, where do we go from here?

Simple - you stick a fork in it. It's done.

As for LMP1 Privateers, like whom? All we've heard is talk about Ginetta's new car's testing development. We have no idea who is supposedly going to race them. We know even less about Oreca and Perrinn. The field in next year's Le Mans is going to be alright with cars which don't exist yet for teams we know nothing about eight months before they are supposed to be racing?

And why would privateers spend the sort of money LMP1 commands when they weren't before now, and while have LMP2 where you can win and have the rich guy paying the bills actually driving (can't do that in LMP1 in most cases, Bronze-rated drivers aren't allowed to race them), and you know if you get lucky you might win Le Mans there anyways? If Porsche had spent five more minutes in the pits this year the Jackie Chan DC boys could have stood on the top step of the podium. Knowing that an LMP1 is strictly limited to the WEC, which is gonna have a harder time justifying its existence now.

People need to remember that the ACO has been a major beneficiary of VAG money for nearly 20 years, and had the GT1 boom before that to make their fields fat and budgets big. 2018 is going straight back to 1994, and 1994 didn't have a WEC to drive the costs up, not to mention Porsche pulled a fast one on Toyota then. (The more things change, the more they stay the same....) How does the ACO intend on expanding the WEC's top category without manufacturer money? I'll be surprised if next season isn't Toyota's last. Peugeot made it clear they were a no show without big cost reductions and the proposed new rules won't deliver much, if any, of that. So, who is going to step up, and who is going to spend the money to replace the nine figures VAG was throwing into the WEC and Le Mans?

The way I see it, the ACO has two options, neither of which they will like one iota but neither of which they can do much about now:

1) Accept DPi into Le Mans and level any LMP1-L challengers with them, run them heads up and see what happens OR

2) Scrap LMP1, slow LMP2 and speed up GTE so that Ford, Corvette, BMW, Ferrari and Porsche could win Le Mans with their GT cars and perhaps you draw a few more in (McLaren above others) to go for it?

Option 1, obviously, is easier. But having dealt with all of the ACO's garbage towards them in the 18 months before this year's Rolex 24, if I were in IMSA's position I'd tell the ACO what they want to do and say take it or leave it. Plus God only knows the ACO's bosses wouldn't know what humility is if it slapped them in the face, and the 'not made here' force is going to be strong in this move. Still, it puts GM, Honda/Acura, Mazda and Nissan in the hunt to win Le Mans in 2018, and I doubt any of them above would pass it up. This would propose an issue the WEC, though, as all of the above efforts are run on North American marketing dollars.

Option 2 is harder, but more likely to get WEC manufacturer money. But it also would have the benefit of probably making it easier to sell GTE cars to both new entrants and perhaps other series. But allowing the LMP2s to run heads-up with the GTE boys raises its own set of problems, perhaps best shown by what happened to the Risi boys at Le Mans.
I like DPI but I really like the idea of ​​the GTE fighting for overall victory.
LMP2 return to 500hp and up to 950 kg.
GTE down to 1100kg and up to 700 hp.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 08:34 (Ref:3756261)   #105
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If Porsche had spent five more minutes in the pits this year the Jackie Chan DC boys could have stood on the top step of the podium.
What you're overlooking is that Jota Sport (which is the actual team) also knows that if they'd even been a couple seconds per lap faster they would have won Le Mans. I don't think people understand the mindset of prototype privateers. There is a lot of LMP2 teams that are racing that class because they believe (and they're right) the ORECA 07 or Ligier JS P217 is a flat out better car than anything that was available on the LMP1 market. I was even reading one team suggesting that they'd be interested in an ORECA with another 50hp so it could beat the LMP2 cars.

Mind you the lack of available customer cars 4 years in does raise some questions, but it's not a totally new thing either. The early years of the LMP class were completely supported by converted Group C cars and it took until the very end of the multiple year transition period from LMP900 to LMP1 for to new cars start appearing in significant numbers. Without the ability to convert old cars and with the privateer regulations preventing a manufacturer developed customer car to jump start the class the way the 956, 333SP, or MG-Lola did it was always going to be this way. Neither small race car manufacturers nor race teams want to be the first one to commit to the risk of a new category.

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Still, it puts GM, Honda/Acura, Mazda and Nissan in the hunt to win Le Mans in 2018, and I doubt any of them above would pass it up.
It takes either a lot of mental gymnastics or sheer delusion to believe a company that built an LMP1 without intending to race it at Le Mans is going to suddenly decide to show up with a race program that markets a brand that doesn't exist in that market. Cadillac has nothing to gain by being there either, and Nissan isn't even a part of things to start with.

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Old 31 Jul 2017, 10:08 (Ref:3756328)   #106
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It takes either a lot of mental gymnastics or sheer delusion to believe a company that built an LMP1 without intending to race it at Le Mans is going to suddenly decide to show up with a race program that markets a brand that doesn't exist in that market. Cadillac has nothing to gain by being there either, and Nissan isn't even a part of things to start with.
Yeah, uh .... no.

Cadillac gets to use Le Mans in all its sportscar ads for the next however long. Nissan isn't in it? yeah, I certainly can't remember the last time Nissan raced at Le Mans ... I am sure if it was in a DeltaWing or DeltaWing clone I'd remember.

Yeah, no sign Nissan even know Le Mans exists.

And if the new P1 class was a pumped-up P2/P1-L style class which allowed manufacturers ...

Maybe you missed this article posted by Chernaudi: "Porsche has left the building ...
So What?" (http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/acce...hat?source=dam)
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 12:09 (Ref:3756402)   #107
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What you're overlooking is that Jota Sport (which is the actual team) also knows that if they'd even been a couple seconds per lap faster they would have won Le Mans. I don't think people understand the mindset of prototype privateers. There is a lot of LMP2 teams that are racing that class because they believe (and they're right) the ORECA 07 or Ligier JS P217 is a flat out better car than anything that was available on the LMP1 market. I was even reading one team suggesting that they'd be interested in an ORECA with another 50hp so it could beat the LMP2 cars.
The Oreca-Gibson is extremely good and has the economy of scale benefits. I don't see any reason for a privateer to go other way because it will be more expensive and does not guarantee that performance. This Oreca for a privateer today is like a Porsche 956 in the mid 80s ( and the privateers stopped having any chance in the Gr C when other manufacturers arrived and the championship was never again a Porsche cup ).
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 14:31 (Ref:3756431)   #108
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Yeah, uh .... no.

Cadillac gets to use Le Mans in all its sportscar ads for the next however long. Nissan isn't in it? yeah, I certainly can't remember the last time Nissan raced at Le Mans ... I am sure if it was in a DeltaWing or DeltaWing clone I'd remember.

Yeah, no sign Nissan even know Le Mans exists.

And if the new P1 class was a pumped-up P2/P1-L style class which allowed manufacturers ...

Maybe you missed this article posted by Chernaudi: "Porsche has left the building ...
So What?" (http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/acce...hat?source=dam)
Allowing rebranding of the Gibson engine could be an option too, Gibson surely won't mind as long as they get paid - it's just the cocky FIA and ACO that won't admit they're miles behind the ball...
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 17:19 (Ref:3756464)   #109
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Nissan is as involved in LMP1 already as they are DPi, does that make you feel better?

I don't even know what Cadillac gets out of winning Daytona with Jeff Gordon let alone Le Mans in a market they sell fewer than 800 cars, it doesn't really relate to its brand and I have seen absolutely zero use of it in their marketing. I can't even find any mention of DPi on their website (the ATS-V.R on the other hand at least does appear on the ATS-V material). When they went last time they were trying to launch the brand globally but "global" now means mostly China and they're about as launched as they're going to get in Europe without building a much better dealer network first. Now that GM has sold off its European brands it's a niche market for them.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 17:36 (Ref:3756466)   #110
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IMSA's pretty full of hubirs too, considering that they have ties to NASCAR (though Jim seems to have a bit less of an ego problem than his nephew Brian does).

That being said, Jim France knew that OEMs are only willing to spend so much money outside of VAG and Toyota. And even then the tide's turning. Because Formula E, love it or loathe it, does offer an avenue to EV and hybrid R&D for a very small fraction of the cost of LMP1.

And it does also stand to reason that even TMG's budget, even if stated to be about 75 million USD (which I believe to be conservative given recent changes at TMG's LMP1 program), that's easily 10 times what even the richest privateer team would probably want to spend on LMP1.

IMO, the ACO priced themselves out due to following the factory money gravy train, a mistake they've made several times before that's lead to short burst of huge interest from factory teams, but then it simmers down to one or two of them sticking around, or things becoming privateer focused.

When you have the guy that the ACO hired saying that it might have been a mistake to not make LMP1 more accessible, that to me is all the evidence you need to hear that they screwed up.

But I don't think that going full DPI is the answer. Should factory teams be allowed to design their own bodywork and powertrain around a customer chassis like AMR did with Lola? Yes, that should be an option. But I also don't think that DPI being as much a BOP formula as GT3 racing is an option. These cars are prototypes, not GT cars.

So I think that development should be allowed, and that teams who want to should be allowed to build their own cars. That's basically where the tie-in that SMP Racing has with Dallara came from.

But either way, I think that the best thing to do, be it privateers or factory teams, is to make things affordable enough that teams can run customer cars.

If we get to that point, my opinion is "so what" if the huge hybrids are gone and such? If we can get factory teams to promote "racing what we sell" as far as technology without the huge costs and outlays, LMP1 would probably be healthy. And the more quality cars on the grid, the better.

It could be like LMP900 or first gen LMP1 where you had privateer cars, factory developed cars, off the shelf engines, engine supply deals, etc.

And such a thing could also bring back the variety that prototype racing has IMO been lacking in for years.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 17:50 (Ref:3756472)   #111
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And also for the GTs competing with prototypes as the top class, I'm not sure how that'd work now.

We'd probably be back to GT1's origins of where teams built homologation specials and were basically prototypes in all but name. And I certainly don't know how current GTEs could be sped up to LMP levels.

The current cars are too heavy, under-powered (though the latter is partly a function of rules, outside of Aston Martin and Porsche), and have no where near the aero capabilities of a prototype.

The ACO would either have to scrap the current GTE regs (which themselves are still relatively new), or create a new top GT class around hyper cars. But as I've asked before, would the price point get to where it would be better just to run LMP1 cars?
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 17:52 (Ref:3756473)   #112
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I don't even know what Cadillac gets out of winning Daytona ... I have seen absolutely zero use of it in their marketing. I can't even find any mention of DPi on their website
Pretty good coverage here http://www.cadillac.com/v-series/racing.html



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Old 31 Jul 2017, 18:25 (Ref:3756489)   #113
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For what it's worth, Andre Lotterer thinks that a form of DPI could be a soluition for LMP1:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...hes-lmp1-exit/

But again, I'm not in favor of DPI as it is being the top class. They're probably at best marginally faster than LMP2 cars, and it's a BOP formula that aims to limit development.

Granted, if development was opened up, I can imagine DPIs being able to reach LMP1-like speeds fairly easily. And I like the idea Andre endorsed of being able to do LM, Sebring and Daytona again in the same basic type of car in the top class.

But what would have to happen (in specifics) to get DPIs up to LMP1 privateer pace?
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 19:12 (Ref:3756508)   #114
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But what would have to happen (in specifics) to get DPIs up to LMP1 privateer pace?
I don't think IMSA DPi would cut it. If teams want to play cheap in the US (i.e. next to no development) FIA DPi might have to allow some ... which would mean the same basic cars and motors to start with, but by the end of the season the Euro cars would be faster .... and the U.S. cars would bolt on the new parts for the next season.

I cannot see the top class in the world being a BoP class ... rather, More of a BoP class than LMP1 has already been. For legitimacy there has to be some degree of freedom .... I suggested earlier maybe a limited number of updates throughout a season, to try to keep spending wars from doing what they have always done.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 19:45 (Ref:3756517)   #115
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The only reason to allow DPi cars at Le Mans, is the companies money. But it is just one race, then the entire IMSA cars will be back to US and this is not a solution for the WEC.

The WEC should wait to see how many LMP1 they could get, and think about 2020 regulations. It could be a back to combustion engines or maybe a fixed KERS system for private entries to allow them to compete against manufactures.

But the DPi cars are not a solution as is today, because the BoP.

In part it is just a game or words, a DPi car without BoP, is a LMP1, but it's a manufacturer entrance?
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 21:51 (Ref:3756534)   #116
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For what it's worth, Andre Lotterer thinks that a form of DPI could be a soluition for LMP1:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...hes-lmp1-exit/

But again, I'm not in favor of DPI as it is being the top class. They're probably at best marginally faster than LMP2 cars, and it's a BOP formula that aims to limit development.

Granted, if development was opened up, I can imagine DPIs being able to reach LMP1-like speeds fairly easily. And I like the idea Andre endorsed of being able to do LM, Sebring and Daytona again in the same basic type of car in the top class.

But what would have to happen (in specifics) to get DPIs up to LMP1 privateer pace?
It would be nice to see what question he was actually asked, the autosport article had a lot of the same quotes but nothing about DPi, and sportscar365 really likes to push the DPi narrative for some reason.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 22:58 (Ref:3756554)   #117
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Yeah, uh .... no.

Cadillac gets to use Le Mans in all its sportscar ads for the next however long. Nissan isn't in it? yeah, I certainly can't remember the last time Nissan raced at Le Mans ... I am sure if it was in a DeltaWing or DeltaWing clone I'd remember.

Yeah, no sign Nissan even know Le Mans exists.

And if the new P1 class was a pumped-up P2/P1-L style class which allowed manufacturers ...

Maybe you missed this article posted by Chernaudi: "Porsche has left the building ...
So What?" (http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/acce...hat?source=dam)
Lots of misinformation in that opinion piece. Peugeot spending 100's of millions on lmp1? That's not why they quit. That's not even why the VAG teams quit.

As for privateers, the Ginetta and the SMP Dallara have some big name guys behind their projects. The Ginetta has been in the William F1 windtunnel and is on track to be on track in a month. Those are two new, purpose built lmp1s. They'll easily be faster than lmp2. ByKolles with it's 'ancient' chassis was easily faster too.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 23:45 (Ref:3756562)   #118
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As for privateers, the Ginetta and the SMP Dallara have some big name guys behind their projects. The Ginetta has been in the William F1 windtunnel and is on track to be on track in a month. Those are two new, purpose built lmp1s. They'll easily be faster than lmp2. ByKolles with it's 'ancient' chassis was easily faster too.
Will the Perrinn see the light this time? They said they have two chassis sold, but nobody knows the name of the buyer. Maybe the departure of Porsche will tempt those projects (aka sponsors) with doubts.
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 01:18 (Ref:3756568)   #119
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The impression I got was it was Morand, but I don't know why the program wasn't announced at Le Mans when it should have been.
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 01:41 (Ref:3756570)   #120
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Actually, in a way, costs are exactly why Peugeot and VAG quit. Peugeot had to justify a $200 million racing program in the face of massive layoffs ... a $20 million would have been a lot easier to justify.

Audi and then Porsche are facing huge fines and negative publicity ... but somehow the much cheaper, or even profitable GT programs ares till around. If P1 hadn't cost whatever obscene amount it cost they might have been able to keep the programs alive ... or if Porsche could have sold 919s like it sold 956s and 962s.

No, the enormous cost of P1 wasn't the Direct reason for any of the three pulling ot ...
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 01:57 (Ref:3756571)   #121
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It has to be remembered that Peugeot's program was actually $75 million in total, but about 20-25 million of that came from corporate sponsorship (Total SA).

Audi's budget was estimated to be about the same, but with no breakdown as far as where their money was coming from. However, both figures apply to 2011.

And yes, the cost was a part of the reason of why they're gone. VAG survived spending (or at least setting aside) $25 billion to cover dieselgate lawsuits (now dieselgate and related anti-trust/anti-competitive practices now pretty much involves every car maker that does business in the EU, and probably also involves Ford, GM, FCA and maybe Japanese car makers), and are still making sizable profits.

But that doesn't mean, at least in the court of public opinion, that spending $200 million on Porsche program would still look good for PR reasons.

And as Graham said earlier, if Audi Sport just went to running a gasoline engine, after already ditching the flywheel hybrid for a battery box, that would make the Audi and Porsche programs more redundant, and VAG probably would've had to have axed/moved one of them anyways.

A lot of this is motivated for PR/PC reasons, but I also still believe that Audi Sport sinking $150+million a season and Porsche $200 million a season on a dying formula probably didn't sit well with the bean counters, even under better circumstances.

I'd bet that Toyota probably don't really want to spend $75-100 million or whatever they're spending on TMG's program right now, especially since Audi Sport and Porsche are gone. But still, will that reduce Toyota's budget to a significant degree? I don't know, but probably not.

Chances are that money might get moved to another program or to support the start up of something else if TMG's LMP1 budget gets reduced.

I still believe that costs and declining ROI were at least contributing factors to the pull outs, and probably made such decisions easier to make.
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 06:22 (Ref:3756595)   #122
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Actually, in a way, costs are exactly why Peugeot and VAG quit. Peugeot had to justify a $200 million racing program in the face of massive layoffs ... a $20 million would have been a lot easier to justify.

Audi and then Porsche are facing huge fines and negative publicity ... but somehow the much cheaper, or even profitable GT programs ares till around. If P1 hadn't cost whatever obscene amount it cost they might have been able to keep the programs alive ... or if Porsche could have sold 919s like it sold 956s and 962s.

No, the enormous cost of P1 wasn't the Direct reason for any of the three pulling ot ...
Nope. Costs were not the issue but saving face was. A lot easier to justify doing F-E with its green image than to be seen running a diesel engine in lmp1. Porsche didn't leave to save a possible $100, 150 some odd million to help pay for fines. Their r&d budget covers the lmp1 program more than 100 times over at that cost... Look here http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...ly-can-pay-off

Last year alone they spent nearly £11 billion in r&d. They're not hurting for cash, certainly it's not too much to run a couple of lmp1's.
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 09:20 (Ref:3756633)   #123
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Peugeot motorsport boss Jean-Marc Finot:

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-new...rn-to-le-mans/

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...l-in-play.html

First link is from July 21, but I suspect the quotes in the DSC link were also made before Friday.
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 09:55 (Ref:3756637)   #124
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Also points that the ACO might be going back to the 2004-2013 regs for the underbody where the rear diffuser and the area leading to it were basically spec. Only major point of development there (the free zones referenced in the article) was the front diffuser.
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 10:00 (Ref:3756639)   #125
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So Peugeot can just roll out the old 908?
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