Minardi questions Vettel's Singapore superiority

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

It would seem that Renault are to blame for all of F1s ills, this season. They have had the audacity to introduce technology that cuts the power to 4 of the engines 8 cylinders, mid corner, and are doing it without breaking any of the rules. Shame on them.

But seriously though, why? We talk elsewhere about innovation we do or don't need - is this something we should be applauding?

[Bononi]

That's wonderful, down the same road again.

[Paradise City]

Software? Strip out all on-board 'software'. Get rid of it all. Don't need that garbage. I'm here to watch racing cars not 22 laptops on wheels.

You can have certain areas where we allow a channel for innovation and other areas where we curb it.

Stops a spending race. Stops the sport grinding itself into the ground or where we have drivers who are essentially gamers effortlessly controlling space-age pods which is the final conclusions that would result from a complete open innovation regime.

[MoMedic9019]

I'd love to go back to dual element front wings, dual element rear wings, low noses, no other aero development, no TC, no DRS..nothing...

Mechanical grip, big power, and moderate aero. Lets see how good Vettel or any of the others gets on then. Right now, it's just a engineering race.

[Adam43]

There isn't any TC now, of course.

It's always been an engineering race. Coupled with good drivers, it is the point.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Adam43

There isn't any TC now, of course.

Right. And I'm the Queen of Scandinavia.


What i'm getting at is, no streamed telemetry, no active aero etc....

You have 2 million dollars, build the best car you can.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Right. And I'm the Queen of Scandinavia.

Pleased to meet you Ma'am.

FWIW I got what your getting at.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I'd love to go back to dual element front wings, dual element rear wings, low noses, no other aero development, no TC, no DRS..nothing...

Mechanical grip, big power, and moderate aero. Lets see how good Vettel or any of the others gets on then. Right now, it's just a engineering race.

+1

[321Go]

Mark Webbers interview on Australian TV was interesting. He was asked about the RBR using TC rumours. He's answer was something on the lines of Adrian Newey has always pushed the boundaries of the rules since he has worked with him. And the cars have always passed the regulations or sailed very close to them. Adrian is always looking for an edge and he is paid a lot of money to do so.

The way Mark paused before answering, and the tone of his voice when he answered that question, says, to me at least, that RBR have found a way around the rules of TC, or have a way of not being detected during the tech inspections.

They are cutting cylinders out of the corners and are the only Renault powered team doing so. So Renault cannot be blamed, and it's not a problem that Renault created. It is a RBR software issue.

[jsTrecu]

And now you'll probably tell us that Mark's car caught fire because Sutil drove into the TC system, right ?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Mark Webbers interview on Australian TV was interesting. He was asked about the RBR using TC rumours.

They are cutting cylinders out of the corners and are the only Renault powered team doing so. So Renault cannot be blamed, and it's not a problem that Renault created. It is a RBR software issue.

Do you have proof of this ? From what I've heard on Sky F1 and seen online all Renault powered cars have been cutting cylinders.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

There isn't any TC now, of course.

It's always been an engineering race. Coupled with good drivers, it is the point.

[Marbot]

Red Bull have worked with Renault to come up with a system that cuts 4 cylinders out in certain situations. It's all perfectly legal.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Do you have proof of this ? From what I've heard on Sky F1 and seen online all Renault powered cars have been cutting cylinders.

Renault engines have had a reputation for driveability for years. It is because of reasons like this.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Mark Webbers interview on Australian TV was interesting. He was asked about the RBR using TC rumours. He's answer was something on the lines of Adrian Newey has always pushed the boundaries of the rules since he has worked with him. And the cars have always passed the regulations or sailed very close to them. Adrian is always looking for an edge and he is paid a lot of money to do so.

The way Mark paused before answering, and the tone of his voice when he answered that question, says, to me at least, that RBR have found a way around the rules of TC, or have a way of not being detected during the tech inspections.

They are cutting cylinders out of the corners and are the only Renault powered team doing so. So Renault cannot be blamed, and it's not a problem that Renault created. It is a RBR software issue.

Except - it's not an issue. The car passes scrutineering and all the tests that have been thrown at it.

Your assessment of Newey is correct- he is paid a lot of money to do EXACTLY what is happening here - make a car that is as close to the rules as possible (but not past them) and for that car to win races.

He does that job exceptionally well.

And cutting cylinders is a perfectly legal thing to do...so not sure why you keep bringing it up. The fact that no-one else does it (is that really true?) is irrelevant as long as it's within the rules; it's not RBR's software issues, it's everyone elses for missing it.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by JamesH

And cutting cylinders is a perfectly legal thing to do...so not sure why you keep bringing it up. The fact that no-one else does it (is that really true?) is irrelevant as long as it's within the rules; it's not RBR's software issues, it's everyone elses for missing it.

totally agree!

for arguments sake maybe they found a way to circumvent the ECU or are using an illegal approach, given their lead in the WCC is there any logical reason for them to risk still using it?

rather if their advantage still exists once they have mathematically clinched the title and if we still see this same advantage then for me its proof positive that they have simply just done a better job within the rules.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Renault engines have had a reputation for driveability for years. It is because of reasons like this.

Pretty much this.

A truly peerless engine company in F1 for over two decades.

When everybody had traction control they still destroyed everyone else off the line and exiting slow corners.

[Marbot]

An interesting article:


"What Renault was given, back in 2011 was a dispensation from F1 technical director Charlie Whiting to be able to cut cylinders, up to four at the time. Renault claimed it needed to do this for reliability and that is likely what you are hearing in the clip: an engine map which makes use of that ability. You can argue cutting cylinders mid-corner and then bringing them back gradually is a form of traction control, but as long as there is no connection between actual wheelspin and engine modulation, it's not illegal."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/...-bull-traction

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Pretty much this.

A truly peerless engine company in F1 for over two decades.

When everybody had traction control they still destroyed everyone else off the line and exiting slow corners.

That ability to defend gave rise to the Trulli train.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Marbot

An interesting article:


"What Renault was given, back in 2011 was a dispensation from F1 technical director Charlie Whiting to be able to cut cylinders, up to four at the time. Renault claimed it needed to do this for reliability and that is likely what you are hearing in the clip: an engine map which makes use of that ability. You can argue cutting cylinders mid-corner and then bringing them back gradually is a form of traction control, but as long as there is no connection between actual wheelspin and engine modulation, it's not illegal."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/...-bull-traction

Of course, unless it is reactive to wheel spin it isn't TC. It's just have a driveable engine.

[MarkG]

I just see it as a form of traction-control that is legal, but if all the F1 teams accept it, why should I worry about it??

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MarkG

I just see it as a form of traction-control that is legal, but if all the F1 teams accept it, why should I worry about it??

There's a very big difference. 'Traction Control' is an automatic loop back control system which adjusts an output [i.e. the engine speed] based on the behaviour of an input [wheelspin]. From what we're told, that's not the case here.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by davyboy

There's a very big difference. 'Traction Control' is an automatic loop back control system which adjusts an output [i.e. the engine speed] based on the behaviour of an input [wheelspin]. From what we're told, that's not the case here.

I said a ""a form of ..."" suggesting, it's like, but not the same as..

So why do they do it??? What benefits are there??
The answer can only deduce, it's a "" form of"" traction control.

[Aysedasi]

If the main benefit is the same as traction control, we're just arguing semantics. That said, if it's legal, it's legal. Interesting to see that we're told that Charlie gave Renault the dispensation. But presumably it's there for any other team/engine builder that wants it...... For as long as it remains legal, of course.....

[321Go]

This is like the Schumacher/Benetton/Ferrari/Hidden Traction Control saga all over again. Vettel always said he wanted to be just like his hero. Now he has that same bad smell that hangs around Schumacher's achievements too.

No matter what you want to call it, it's a form of traction control. Simple. And even though it may be a legal loophole, when your CAR is 2 seconds faster on the opening lap, and capable of even more if pushed, it doesn't help but attract criticism and shouts of cheating from the public because of it.

In 2011 and 2012 Vettel's car was the fastest, and the same in 2013. Coincidently, it's been since the Renault engine was given a dispensation before the 2011 season. Red Bull have been primarily the only team with enough R&D resources to take advantage of it.