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Old 2 Nov 2016, 11:09 (Ref:3684710)   #1
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Vettel v Whiting

It occurs to me that rather than Seb apologising for his language, it should be the FIA saying sorry to Vettel.

Why?

When Max took the short cut that enabled him to stay ahead of the Ferrari, he was clearly in breach of the rules, and subsequently, post race, received a 5 second penalty, however, if Whiting had done his duty properly an official instruction would have been issued to Red Bull to order Verstappen to yield the place. Had this happened none of the other matters would have happened. Ricciardo would not have ben in the position to pressure the Ferrari. No dodgy manoeuvre from Seb to defend his place.

Without the intransigence of young Verstappen, and his pig headed attitude Vettel would have had the third place he fully deserved, and there would have been no unpleasantness that spoiled the final result. Three different third place men in the space of minutes, making a mockery of a high tech, high profile 'sport'.

Once again a lack of proper oversight by the officials ruined a race.

In my opinion the whole incident reflects very badly on Whiting and the race officials, and they definitely own Vettel and Ferrari an apology.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 11:20 (Ref:3684711)   #2
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Sebastian Vettel needs to curb his language, I can't think of another sport where this type of behavior would be tolorated...
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 11:27 (Ref:3684714)   #3
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Doesn't matter, it's up to the officials to decide what should be punished and although we need more consistency, Vettel should not have reacted like that. If he had managed to regain cool, he wouldn't have lost that third place he inherited after the race, for the incident with the Honey Badger
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 11:46 (Ref:3684721)   #4
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Vettel is living up to his old reputation,and is definitely still TFG2!!He shoud be given a bigger punishment!!
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 13:42 (Ref:3684760)   #5
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why should he be given a bigger punishment? can you prove that any of the rest of the grid doesn't say the same things?
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 14:19 (Ref:3684762)   #6
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Sebastian Vettel needs to curb his language, I can't think of another sport where this type of behavior would be tolorated...
I can't think of another sport where they all wear microphones during the event and have a TV director choose to broadcast the most offensive (and therefore entertaining) messages live, thus deciding who can be penalised and who will be ignored.

I imagine football would be hilarious if they wall wore microphones. You'd have about 3 people left on the field after 20 minutes.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 14:20 (Ref:3684763)   #7
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Sebastian Vettel needs to curb his language, I can't think of another sport where this type of behavior would be tolorated...
My point is not that Vettel swore, but that if the correct decision had been made by Whiting et al, the matter would have not got that far.

This is not a defence of Vettel, but a comment on poor decision making by Officialdom.

Do not confuse the two separate issues.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 14:22 (Ref:3684764)   #8
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Well whatever people think the incident put some life into a pretty boring race and although he should not have said those things we can all see the frustration of a driver for whom nothing at the moment seems to be going right. He was quick to apologies to all concerned and i think he will be a little more careful in future. i am not a big fan of Seb but he is a great talent and if things continue his future in F1 could be under serious pressure and he could walk away
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 14:45 (Ref:3684771)   #9
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Agree GT - it was a bloody dull race besides Lewis' corner cut controversy (that never was) - and the final 3 laps in the battle for 3rd.

Look how long the race thread is compared to just after the race.

It's definitely attracted column inches / given us lot something to talk about with the whole Lewis / Max + Vettel / Whiting + Vettel / Ric.

I do get confused how the hell it takes so long for the stewards to make a bloody decision - most rules are black and white, with little grey. Seems to take WAY too long.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 15:05 (Ref:3684777)   #10
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I do get confused how the hell it takes so long for the stewards to make a bloody decision - most rules are black and white, with little grey. Seems to take WAY too long.
Well, the biggest problem for F1 officiating tends to be multiple incursions simultaneously occurring, which is exactly what happened at the beginning of the race. That's why they need to have more than three "officials", or at the very least, a team of analysts, like the NFL (National Football League). The NFL gets the calls handled in minutes!

They have multiple cameras on a single play, just like F1 (Corner, in-car & telemetry), so there's no reason why they can't properly enforce the rules.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 15:09 (Ref:3684778)   #11
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Vettel should be reprimanded. I don't mind swearing - indeed, I love it - but in any sport you don't have a go at the referee. That crossed a line.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 15:19 (Ref:3684782)   #12
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but he made the comments to his team. its not like he said this to Whiting's face.

the purpose of the FIA having access to the radio comms is to prevent cheating, collusion, team orders etc...not to be the thought or morality police.

i should add though they handled it properly. apologizes were made and the issue was closed.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 15:22 (Ref:3684784)   #13
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Vettel complained to his team about the race director. If Lewis goes back to the truck after the race and complained to the team about the race director, is that a penalty? If Massa does it during the race, but the TV director doesn't broadcast it, is it a penalty?

We're penalising Vettel based on circumstance, rather than the crime. If the crime should be penalised, then it should be regardless of circumstance.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 15:30 (Ref:3684787)   #14
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Sorry to be a pain, BUT we have had plenty of reaction, opinion on Herr Vettel's language on other threads. Does no one have an opinion on the culpability of race officials lack of action on the Verstappen short cut immediately it happened instead of waiting until the race had finished?

MY contention is that IF WHITING has acted decisively at the time of the infraction, none of the other matters would have occurred.

Of course I could always start another thread about Sebastien Vettel's use of bad language during a Grand Prix
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 16:00 (Ref:3684794)   #15
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OK this is getting silly now.

Telling a driver to swap positions after gaining an advantage is not a penalty. It is and always has been in my opinion a case of "let him past or you will get a penalty" Charlie whiting does not give penalties. This is done by the stewards of the event and this process takes more than the few seconds that some people seem to want.

Given that any penalty would have been given in the last 3 laps i believe (correct me if i am wrong) that any time penalty even if it was a stop/go or drive through would not have to be taken and could be added onto the end of the race.

Morally should Max have given the position back after an advantage? probably yes, but so should Hamilton in that case and no one is complaining as much about that. Max new what he was doing after he made the mistake and played the percentages game. Give up the position and guarantee 5th. Don't give it up and maybe keep 3rd is the stewards are being generous.

To blame Charlie for this because of previous opinion of Max I think is unfair. If vettel wants us to believe that he would have given up the position voluntarily without instruction or would not have argued the point then for sure he is lying.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 16:14 (Ref:3684796)   #16
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Does no one have an opinion on the culpability of race officials lack of action on the Verstappen short cut immediately it happened instead of waiting until the race had finished?
to be honest...i feel bad that DR didnt get to be on the podium (but mainly cause that was one amazing podium celebration) so for the podium finishers they should be able to get to a decision faster then they did in this case.

but all in all, i dont gamble so im not too bothered if the final result comes out immediately or an hour or two after the race.

making these calls is a subjective thing at best...its days after and we are still debating it so at least the stewards are faster at coming to a consensus then we are.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 17:50 (Ref:3684809)   #17
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Vettel complained to his team about the race director. If Lewis goes back to the truck after the race and complained to the team about the race director, is that a penalty? If Massa does it during the race, but the TV director doesn't broadcast it, is it a penalty?

We're penalising Vettel based on circumstance, rather than the crime. If the crime should be penalised, then it should be regardless of circumstance.
Sorry, but Seb said "Here's the message to Charlie: F*** you!" That's pretty blatant, and in no way the same as someone going back to the paddock and venting frustration to his team. Vettel is a quadruple champion, he knows well enough what is public, and for that outburst, in my view, he should have been reprimanded.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 18:04 (Ref:3684816)   #18
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Given that it's a radio call to the team and bit Charlie, to me that's identical. Venting frustration to the team. He could say it's a message to the Queen if he wants, but that radio call only goes to the team. The difference there is the TV director chose to broadcast it. The exact same words could be said in the garage and nobody will ever know because it can't be broadcast. So again, that's penalising circumstances rather than the crime.

Although there's an argument to be made that Charlie and his team are far too slow at dealing with issues now, which is leading to these situations. Drivers are not penalised consistently or in a decent time frame. Given they are doing some extreme stuff in the cars, it might be wise to react properly and quickly to situations rather than let tempers boil over.

There's also an argument to be had that a driver shouldn't be penalised for his opinion. We're back to the Pirelli situation where there was clearly a problem and the drivers kept saying it, and the solution they came up with was to stop the drivers being allowed to complain. The tyres are crap but it's OK because now nobody can say they're crap. What's the difference this time? Is it that the person who isn't pulling his weight is an official?

Lots of respect for Charlie, but things aren't being dealt with properly. It might be that there's too many rules and penalties to keep up with sensibly and it might not be his fault at all. But we're all sitting here agreeing that there was serious issues with that race, and when a driver gets ****ed off about those issues, we want him penalised. Interesting situation we have here.

TV director appears to have the most power. Race director is untouchable. Frustrated drivers aren't allowed to agree with everybody else if it involves a bad word. The real fix to this was for the TV director not to broadcast the radio message.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 18:52 (Ref:3684827)   #19
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OK! Vettel is a foul mouthed racing driver.

I now resign from this thread.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 18:58 (Ref:3684831)   #20
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I was under the impression that race control, and therefore Charlie, had access to all team radio. Therefore it was directed at Charlie. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 19:13 (Ref:3684833)   #21
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I was under the impression that race control, and therefore Charlie, had access to all team radio. Therefore it was directed at Charlie. Correct me if I'm wrong.
they certainly have access to all of it but the driver is not actually talking to race control.

if the driver has an issue, they tell their team and then the team communicates with race control to either get a clarification or start an investigation.

rather the only time i can think of of race control directly responding to a drivers comments is when they think they are hearing a code or something about team orders (when those types of messages were not allowed anyways).

but maybe they do now...FOM has sold the race to countries all over the world, many of which have far more strict broadcasting standards then we do in Canada anyways (gotta love censorship!)

although as most of you guys are in the UK (and i've seen many of your programs) profanity masquerading as colloquialisms or idioms is so common place that i find it hard to believe that anyone in the UK would be offended by an f bomb.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 19:34 (Ref:3684839)   #22
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I was under the impression that race control, and therefore Charlie, had access to all team radio. Therefore it was directed at Charlie. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Very good point. Are the race directors actually listening to all the radio calls, or are they only taking random selected ones? Obviously you need a team of people monitoring the radios and one person can't cover it. So was vettel trying to direct it that way, or was it frustration being vented to the team?

But again, would this be penalised if it wasn't on TV? I doubt that very much.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 19:47 (Ref:3684843)   #23
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Sorry to be a pain, BUT we have had plenty of reaction, opinion on Herr Vettel's language on other threads. Does no one have an opinion on the culpability of race officials lack of action on the Verstappen short cut immediately it happened instead of waiting until the race had finished?

MY contention is that IF WHITING has acted decisively at the time of the infraction, none of the other matters would have occurred.
For what it's worth i totally agree with you - 100%. CW should have made the correct t decision there and then, never mind the "to be investigated after the race" nonsense. By not doing so he then triggered the whole sequence of events which we are all very familiar with now.
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 19:54 (Ref:3684845)   #24
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Yeah I can't believe Seb broadcast that comment. I knew when they put the "broadcast" button on the steering wheel it would be trouble - race drivers shouldn't pick what comments are aired on TV.

What's needed is a independent person/group who can decide what can be broadcast under a strict moral/ethical code....
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 20:50 (Ref:3684859)   #25
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I can't think of another sport where they all wear microphones during the event and have a TV director choose to broadcast the most offensive (and therefore entertaining) messages live, thus deciding who can be penalised and who will be ignored.

I imagine football would be hilarious if they wall wore microphones. You'd have about 3 people left on the field after 20 minutes.
Again I also agree entirely with this post, however Sebastian Vettel needs to wash his mouth out with soap and water, he has a habit of swearing at the drop of a hat ...
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