Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 7 Jun 2017, 09:26 (Ref:3739193)   #1
PS2244
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Australia
Newcastle, NSW
Posts: 797
PS2244 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

Hypothetically if Supercars were to acquire AGT could that open the route to SuperGT specfications?
PS2244 is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 08:05 (Ref:3741545)   #2
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yeah put gt3 in the bin, supercars spend big $$$ chasing a few horsepower, that's the way forward, that's motorsport. Can't see why new/old manufacturer interest is waning, meh, probably unrelated
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 09:42 (Ref:3741555)   #3
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Yeah put gt3 in the bin, supercars spend big $$$ chasing a few horsepower, that's the way forward, that's motorsport. Can't see why new/old manufacturer interest is waning, meh, probably unrelated
Isnt that one of the key reasons why manufactuers are getting into gt4. The gt3 cars were getting too expensive as they chase HP, aero and weight. that they have now had to get into lower cost cars as they were starting to get out of the price of the common person
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 11:44 (Ref:3741587)   #4
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
Gentleman drivers, was that not clear to you.
A certain Mr Van Gisbergen may disagree with you. He looks quite handy in a GT3. Wonder how he'd get on in a 'Professional' category?
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3741593)   #5
chavez
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Australia
The Basin, Victoria
Posts: 2,827
chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich07 View Post
But still you're saying that those engines are not used in a professional motorsport which is rubbish.

Even if the category is wholly of gentlemen racers (and it isn't as there are plenty of pros) it's still professional motorsport by definition. And by saying otherwise you're slandering the hard work of those who participate whether they be drivers, snappers, truck drivers or yes indeed hairdressers.
No doubt the work done by the teams and drivers is very professional.

Unfortunately some of the sporting regulations including minimum pit stop times and driver seedings go against this notation of professionalism.

It is very much in the spirit of splendid amateurism prevalent in the British army tank regiments of the Second World War. Apologies if this analogy is too obscure, but I can't think of another comparison.

I follow AGT and have followed sports car racing in Australia for many years. And for most of those years the gentleman driver didn't need minimum pit stop times or driver seedings to be competitive.
chavez is online now  
__________________
"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 12:16 (Ref:3741603)   #6
PS2244
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Australia
Newcastle, NSW
Posts: 797
PS2244 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No offence meant Peckstar but for lack of a better word I fail to see how theirs any validity to your labelling of GT3, as an exemplar look at the Am-Am class from this years Bathurst 12 hour it was fully professional through and through you had the likes of Jamie Whincup partnering with Toni Vilander . Of course yes there's gentleman racers their they are integral part of GT3 but to label it as not real Motorsport is not a fair summation in my view, I hope I have not offended you

Last edited by PS2244; 15 Jun 2017 at 12:30.
PS2244 is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 13:52 (Ref:3741641)   #7
StueyB83
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 36
StueyB83 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
Isnt that one of the key reasons why manufactuers are getting into gt4. The gt3 cars were getting too expensive as they chase HP, aero and weight. that they have now had to get into lower cost cars as they were starting to get out of the price of the common person
Manufacturers still tip insane amounts of money into GT3 because that's what the people watch. It's retains a good level of privateer and factory interest because in-season development is severely limited and so is the outlay. They have little reason to chase too much HP, Aero or lose weight because every advantage is eventually thwarted by BoP.

I can only suspect that the minimum performance level set by the FIA and tested each September for homologation is a constantly moving goal post that is forcing GT3 speeds up every few years - hence the GT-R, Jaguar and Bentley beginning to drop off.

It is reaching a point of unsustainable cost escalation, however - but I am sceptical every dollar and dime received on a GT3 car only just covers the cost to build it...

Most are only adding GT4 to their inventory (and TCR in some instances) to capture greater market share.

GT4 Europe is still predominantly contested by tuner built models and legacy one-make cars - with the Cayman MR and McLaren 570s slowly starting to take over.

GT4 still costs a bomb - $250k plus for a raft of newer models - well out of reach of most normal people (as is TCR - $100k + is not something most people have laying about for toys).
StueyB83 is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 18:16 (Ref:3741796)   #8
simon5574
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location:
melbourne, australia
Posts: 97
simon5574 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-star View Post
I don't think you understand much about anything
I think you just like to argue because you have no friends
pretty offensive immature response.

A lot of work and expense can be thrown at an engine even with a 'capped' power output.

Engine builders and tuners can spend plenty chasing the delivery of that power, ie where and how it makes it, tractability etc while still arriving at the same peak output as the next bloke.

Engine power delivery can be very specifically and carefully designed for each track.

Others may choose to operate a basic config designed for high mileage for instance.

I could continue to elaborate but hopefully you are starting to grasp the concept that others are discussing and have a more considerate response 👍

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
simon5574 is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 21:43 (Ref:3742004)   #9
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon5574 View Post

A lot of work and expense can be thrown at an engine even with a 'capped' power output.

Engine builders and tuners can spend plenty chasing the delivery of that power, ie where and how it makes it, tractability etc while still arriving at the same peak output as the next bloke.

Engine power delivery can be very specifically and carefully designed for each track.

Others may choose to operate a basic config designed for high mileage for instance.

I could continue to elaborate but hopefully you are starting to grasp the concept that others are discussing and have a more considerate response 👍

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
Well described. thank you
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Jun 2017, 23:05 (Ref:3742039)   #10
Tourer
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 4,334
Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon5574 View Post
A lot of work and expense can be thrown at an engine even with a 'capped' power output.

Engine builders and tuners can spend plenty chasing the delivery of that power, ie where and how it makes it, tractability etc while still arriving at the same peak output as the next bloke.

Engine power delivery can be very specifically and carefully designed for each track.

Others may choose to operate a basic config designed for high mileage for instance.

I could continue to elaborate but hopefully you are starting to grasp the concept that others are discussing and have a more considerate response 👍

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
Not to mention fuel economy, CoG, rotating mass and a raft of other items - you've nailed it with that post Simon.

Those suggesting that a capped power output means no development simply have no idea what they're talking about.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 06:51 (Ref:3742098)   #11
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
About time we had a hang-$#!+-on-everything thread.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 06:54 (Ref:3742099)   #12
GTRMagic
Race Official
1% Club
 
GTRMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Australia
Sell me this pen....
Posts: 46,524
GTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
About time we had a hang-$#!+-on-everything thread.
Rather than contaminate every single thread, here is the final resting place..
GTRMagic is offline  
__________________
Happy David Thexton Day, 21st March 2003
“I am not uncertain” - Dollar Bill Stern, Billions
“Fear stimulates my imagination” - Don Draper, Mad Men
“Everybody Lies” - Dr Gregory House
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 06:55 (Ref:3742100)   #13
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It needed to happen.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 06:55 (Ref:3742101)   #14
PS2244
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Australia
Newcastle, NSW
Posts: 797
PS2244 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I just don't understand this one or another mentality I'm sorry why can't we just love both categories lol
PS2244 is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 06:58 (Ref:3742102)   #15
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS2244 View Post
I just don't understand this one or another mentality I'm sorry why can't we just love both categories lol
Unfortunately, it's the whole Us vs Them mentality. Holden V Ford, this footy team V that one.

It's close-minded, tiresome and immature.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 14:42 (Ref:3742224)   #16
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,921
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
Unfortunately, it's the whole Us vs Them mentality. Holden V Ford, this footy team V that one.
It's close-minded, tiresome and immature.
Incredibly so, given that Ford and Vauxhall were leading Super Touring manufacturers.

It would have been a lot of fun to see 2000cc as the elite Australian category from 1993 up to 1999-2001 odd. Just think Bob Holden Toyota Carinas, Winfield Nissan Primeras, Mobil 1 Cavaliers, Valvoline Alfa Romeos, Peter Jackson Alfa Romeos, Shell FAI Mondeos, Orix Audis, Coca-Cola BMWs, Peugeots, Volvos... all going wheel to wheel -- bliss!

A certain missed opportunity to not adopt the booming British 2000cc regulations and keep Nissan happy and racing at the front of the field! Not to mention de-turboed Sierras being a good package for privateers too with their lovely Cosworth motor. Not to mention another privateer favourite, E30 M3s reduced to 2000cc --- now an all-time classic car and highly, highly desirable and collectable!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 16 Jun 2017 at 14:48.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 17:30 (Ref:3742272)   #17
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
If Supercars switches to GT3 probably - except for Bathurst - I will lose interest.
It becomes just a GT series like there are many.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 22:40 (Ref:3742360)   #18
rich07
Veteran
 
rich07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 8,611
rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Australian car builders are welcome to develop GT3 cars so WHERE ARE THEY?

I think it's a real pity. There is no Jaguar for example, so that is a perfect opportunity for a Tickford or Supashock or Harrop to develop a F-Type GT3 then construct 20-30 examples per annum and flog them off around the world.

Likewise it would be great to see Australian companies producing cars on a large scale for TCR or Formula 4. Huge missed opportunity to not use an Australian made F4 chassis.
Firstly you must have permission from the manufacturer to do such a thing and not only that take time and money you also need to have somewhat of a good relationship with the manufacturer. Maybe the manufacturer is sitting on the fence in regards to building such a car themselves and if that's the case then nothings happening in the foreseeable future e.g Emil Frey and Jaguar regarding the F Type GT3. They really need to pull their finger out as the car would look good and sound good and would be better publicity then Formula E.

Then we have the cost of developing such a car and if you want to sell 20-30 per annum then you must have customer support like the three big Germans have now because you might have a good car but if you don't have the after sales support then you wont sell the car in great numbers. Have a look at the Callaway Corvette. Great car, it wins in GT Masters which is one of the most heavily contested national GT series in the world and yet there no cars elsewhere. Some of that is down to the production capacity of the team which is quite small but they don't have the resources to support teams all over the world. And thus people buy a Merc or an Audi instead. Which is a crying shame as the Corvettes a good car.

Those Aussie companies you mention don't have the resources or capacity to do that. And basing one's self in Australia is not helpful when the majority of your market is in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
If Supercars switches to GT3 probably - except for Bathurst - I will lose interest.
It becomes just a GT series like there are many.
I get that. Part of the draw of Supercars for me is those cars are unique, they're big and loud but that appeal is waning with the direction the category is taking. The Mustang ticks all those boxes and if it doesn't appear then its a missed opportunity for the category, it really is.
rich07 is offline  
__________________
Somebody asked if the McLaren F1 was going to be like the Ferrari F40, Gordon Murray replied, "I don't think so, there's no one at McLaren who can weld that badly."
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 23:12 (Ref:3742366)   #19
mayhem
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Aruba
On that Island in LOST.
Posts: 3,219
mayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Drive tests the TCR Audi

If Supercars cease to exist, this is the obvious replacement, not GT3.
mayhem is offline  
__________________
The Jerk Store rang...
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2017, 23:16 (Ref:3742367)   #20
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem View Post
Drive tests the TCR Audi

If Supercars cease to exist, this is the obvious replacement, not GT3.
Im agreeing with you thats its a logical replacment

But a massive backwards step
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jun 2017, 19:24 (Ref:3744944)   #21
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem View Post
Drive tests the TCR Audi

If Supercars cease to exist, this is the obvious replacement, not GT3.
Or GT4. Porsche and BMW have one already. Ford, Mercedes and Audi will join soon.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jun 2017, 21:56 (Ref:3744994)   #22
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
Or GT4. Porsche and BMW have one already. Ford, Mercedes and Audi will join soon.
I cant see Gt4 being the replacement, they have similar pace to a TCR, well off the supercars pace. (10-15 Seconds)
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Jun 2017, 05:12 (Ref:3745064)   #23
bludvl_x19
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Australia
umop apisdn
Posts: 1,637
bludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
Or GT4. Porsche and BMW have one already. Ford, Mercedes and Audi will join soon.
McLaren and KTM also have GT4 cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
I cant see Gt4 being the replacement, they have similar pace to a TCR, well off the supercars pace. (10-15 Seconds)
You seem to be hung up on pace. Pace is relative, not absolute.

If the entire field of cars is within 1-2 seconds of each other as it is now, you won't be able to tell that they are slower.
bludvl_x19 is online now  
__________________
Supercars isn't the sport. The sport is motor racing.
Quote
Old 19 Jun 2017, 07:47 (Ref:3745091)   #24
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bludvl_x19 View Post
You seem to be hung up on pace. Pace is relative, not absolute.

If the entire field of cars is within 1-2 seconds of each other as it is now, you won't be able to tell that they are slower.

I'm not sure what "Pace is relative, not absolute" really means, sounds like some new age thing that sounds great but means little, but ok that's awesome. I suspect it will mean that the long term fans will leave in droves.
Reading the super ute thread is would seem speed is more important than you are thinking

Neither TCR or Gt4 is achieving the 1-2 seconds a you mentioned.

But based on your theory maybe we should just have production cars. Relatively cheap, parts available reasonably easily. Lots of brands Maybe just a hot hatch series might be the way to go

Last edited by peckstar; 19 Jun 2017 at 08:02.
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Jun 2017, 08:05 (Ref:3745103)   #25
one five five
Veteran
 
one five five's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,260
one five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridone five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
I suspect it will mean that the long term fans will leave in droves.
Did long term fans leave when Group C was dropped for slower Group A cars in 1985?

Did long term fans leave when Group A was dropped for slower Commodore & Falcon V8s in 1993?
one five five is online now  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gt3 Rs & Gt3 R Omega-Red Sportscar & GT Racing 18 27 Nov 2003 18:55
SuperTouring Vs New BTCC ADnet Touring Car Racing 13 5 Jun 2003 08:14
SuperTouring web site supertouring Cool Sites 10 15 May 2003 15:42
BMW 3 series (Supertouring) alesi95 Motorsport History 1 27 Jun 2002 12:24


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.