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Old 24 Jan 2018, 16:41 (Ref:3794763)   #426
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I get all that, but it's going a require a lot of leaps of faith from prospective competitors to get the series happening.
It's really not so bad, because unlike niche one make series, TCR cars have strong international resale value. So if it doesn't work out, you can always sell the car on for a good price.
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Old 24 Jan 2018, 18:16 (Ref:3794782)   #427
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I think TCR Australia will only work if importers back the series.
It's a chance for Honda, Hyundai, VW, etc to race against other brands.

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Given the enormous manufacturer backing in other series of TCR worldwide, with ready , existing (and market relevant) cars, relatively inexpensive to run, in the hands of a decent financially sound promoter prepared to invest in the future I can see a future for the category.

To give an idea of the manufacturer backing TCR enjoys, Audi, SEAT, Volkswagen, Ford, Alfa Romeo, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Lada, Opel (Holden), Peugeot, Renault, Skoda, and Subaru have all developed cars for the category.
The private Ford project is dead.
Alfa Romeo, Kia, Subaru and Renault are private projects.
There's no Skoda TCR project.
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Old 24 Jan 2018, 18:56 (Ref:3794795)   #428
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I think TCR Australia will only work if importers back the series.
It's a chance for Honda, Hyundai, VW, etc to race against other brands.
Importantly *for cheap* and with (potentially) better marketing exposure compared to the (unfortunately) fairly niche Australian Rally Championship.
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Old 24 Jan 2018, 20:42 (Ref:3794820)   #429
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What's wrong with buzzboxes?

Besides in road-going form so called 2L buzzboxes like the Civic Type R and GTI 40 Years are significantly faster than a 1995 5L Holden Commodore SS. Indeed the 220kW Civic Type R has the same 80-120 km/hr time as the nearly twice as powerful 430kW HSV GTS, according to Motor magazine! It's not the size of your engine, it's how you use it, eh?


https://www.motormag.com.au/reviews/...-type-r-review

Buzzboxes are far more relevant to what many people are going to buy and drive every day. VF Commodore SSV is a very nice car -- true, but it sures like a drink, so I would strongly consider the Civic Type R that performs nearly as good (in fact the Civic is nearly a full second faster than the SSV from 80 to 120 km/hr, despite 1/3rd the engine size!) and drinks a lot less -- wouldn't you?
Wow, a fair bit of searching for advantage there, I'm sure the Honda Civic is quicker than a 1932 A model Ford V8 too.
You quote the 80-120 times, what about 0 to 80 and 120 and beyond. I'm sure the 80-120 time allows the Honda to catch up a little bit of the distance to the Commodore way in front.
And no, I would not consider the little Honda over a V8 any time.
The discussion is around Racecars, not Roadcars so all this is rather irrelevant.
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Old 24 Jan 2018, 21:39 (Ref:3794829)   #430
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They were lapping roughly as fast as GT4 at the Dubai 24hr last weekend, which was about 10secs off the pace of GT3.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 05:08 (Ref:3794865)   #431
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Surely the first thing is to get them into the 12hr?

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Unless Supercars get the CMA (in which case I reckon they will park it) TCR won't be invited to the 12 hour. Why invite a potential challenger to run in your event?
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 07:33 (Ref:3794873)   #432
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In exchange for a large sum of money?

Likely.
It wasn't that simple with Supercars taking over Australian GT though.

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I don't see a problem.

TCR is significantly cheaper than Carrera Cup or even GT4 yet has far more opportunities for manufacturer alignment and sponsorship.


It is no brainer to leave some of these other categories and join TCR!

TCR would also likely tempt folks who are currently running state Porsche series for old Carrera Cups. TCR would offer similar, or lower, costs with the benefits of being on the national stage.

Costs would likely be on par with the Australia Manufacturer Series (once a car is built up there with Alcon brakes and fancy shocks, the costs are likely on par or greater than TCR anyway), so many runners from the production series should be tempted across too. (Remember all the TCRs run *stock* engines like production series. Very durable, reliable, inexpensive. All engine parts readily available from the manufacturer.)
Carrera Cup owners have just shelled out for brand new cars for this year, so unless they want to add another category to their program, I don't see any of them ditching Carrera Cup in the short-term.

As for people who race Porsche's in state series or the GT3 Cup Challenge, they are mainly enthusiasts driving them, will they get the same enjoyment trading in a Porsche GT3 that is eligible for a number of categories for a VW Golf eligible for just the one?

Aligning with the Australian Production Car Series is exactly what I would do if I had the (in my opinion tough) job of getting TCR off the ground in Australia. Ideally i'd invite the smaller class Production Cars to race with TCR in their own class initially to bulk up the grid while the TCR numbers gradually grow...but in 2018 that might be considered a "bad look"
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 08:24 (Ref:3794879)   #433
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The discussion is around Racecars, not Roadcars so all this is rather irrelevant.
TCR are production based racecars. Inexpensive and reliable!

Of course they would be much faster if they were proper racing cars, but that would defeat the point of them being inexpensive and durable.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 08:40 (Ref:3794882)   #434
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 08:43 (Ref:3794884)   #435
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TCR are production based racecars. Inexpensive and reliable!

Of course they would be much faster if they were proper racing cars, but that would defeat the point of them being inexpensive and durable.
How much does it cost to airfreight one back to Europe after it has been dinged and nobody here can safely fix them?

How would a pilot go in a total write off shunt like Mr Hazelwood’s last year?
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:03 (Ref:3794887)   #436
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Ms Preisig in the Opel Astra had a heavy shunt in the ADAC TRC Germany championship at the end of last year. Much time off, new chassis required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnyVfCCb_Xs

Scales of economy, as always. Cheaper to fix? Or cheaper to re-shell?
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:16 (Ref:3794889)   #437
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TCR are production based racecars. Inexpensive and reliable!

Of course they would be much faster if they were proper racing cars, but that would defeat the point of them being inexpensive and durable.
Wow, so the future is here but it's based on a series of "not proper race cars".
Our premier category should be based on slow "not proper race cars", waiting with baited breath..............
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:19 (Ref:3794890)   #438
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Wow, so the future is here but it's based on a series of "not proper race cars".
Our premier category should be based on slow "not proper race cars", waiting with baited breath..............
Our premier category of closed top cars were "not proper race cars" for over 30 years, proper Touring Cars have always been based on production cars

It was only with the advent of "V8Supercars" that the emphasis went towards purpose built sports sedans based on nothing to do with the road going models.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:28 (Ref:3794894)   #439
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Aligning with the Australian Production Car Series is exactly what I would do if I had the (in my opinion tough) job of getting TCR off the ground in Australia. Ideally i'd invite the smaller class Production Cars to race with TCR in their own class initially to bulk up the grid while the TCR numbers gradually grow...but in 2018 that might be considered a "bad look"
You'd think they have to align with someone until they get enough cars, if they get enough cars to run as a stand-alone category, which I am skeptical about.

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TCR are production based racecars. Inexpensive and reliable!
I'm not really sure that $300k qualifies as inexpensive.

[QUOTE=V8 Fireworks;3794879Of course they would be much faster if they were proper racing cars, but that would defeat the point of them being inexpensive and durable.[/QUOTE]

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How would a pilot go in a total write off shunt like Mr Hazelwood’s last year?
This is always the issue with production based cars, nigh on impossible to make them as safe as you can make a bespoke car, and re-shelling gets expensive at some point too.

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Ms Preisig in the Opel Astra had a heavy shunt in the ADAC TRC Germany championship at the end of last year. Much time off, new chassis required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnyVfCCb_Xs
I have to admit to being a bit shocked that car was written off and the driver injured, the secondary impact didn't really look that bad at all.

Now, I'm the owner of a Golf GTI and I enjoy watching TCR, but it is a bit of a VAGfest, the cars are not that fast, their engine sound is a bit droney, and I think for close to $300k they are a bit rich.

That said, there are a number of manufacturers in there who could potentially run a car, but at $300k per car who is going to stump up $1m a year to run 2 of these?
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:45 (Ref:3794899)   #440
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Wow, so the future is here but it's based on a series of "not proper race cars".
Our premier category should be based on slow "not proper race cars", waiting with baited breath..............
Nobody is suggesting the ATCC should be contested for TCR! TCR is just a support category, one which would provide a pathway into international FWD touring car racing -- a pathway that is currently lacking Australia.

In the UK there is a strong ladder in front wheel drive. Civic Cup, MINI challenge, Renault Clio Cup, through to TCR and finally up to the iconic BTCC.

In Australia you can go from the state Circuit Excels (or state IPRA under-2000cc) up to nothing. There used to be the MINI series to train FWD skills as a step-up from state Excels, but that has been replaced by RWD Toyota 86s.

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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:48 (Ref:3794903)   #441
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That said, there are a number of manufacturers in there who could potentially run a car, but at $300k per car who is going to stump up $1m a year to run 2 of these?
Why would it cost that much?

The car can be leased on finance (with suitable insurance), so the actual money required is a lot less than the full RRP. Then the running costs of the cars are very low.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:51 (Ref:3794905)   #442
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How much does it cost to airfreight one back to Europe after it has been dinged and nobody here can safely fix them?
It's a standard bodyshell with a roll cage in it. It would cost the same to fix at your local panel beaters as a GT4, Australian Manufacturer Series, Improved Production car, V8 Ute, or Circuit Excel.

If it's too bent, I'm sure you could get a new shell -- the same as you would need to do if you race in Improved Production or Australian Manufacturer Series or whatever.

Of course it offers lower safety than a purpose-built spaceframe, but the same applies for GT4, Improved Production, Toyota 86 series, and BTCC and everything else that uses a production bodyshell.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 09:57 (Ref:3794907)   #443
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Of course, a manufacturer wouldn't go all-in, and sponsor the the whole program.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 10:03 (Ref:3794909)   #444
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Why would it cost that much? The car can be leased on finance (with suitable insurance), so the actual money required is a lot less than the full RRP. Then the running costs of the cars are very low.
_Nobody_ is going to lease a car for racing like this, _nobody_

Halve the number for a short series and the question remains. Who has the reddies and is going to kick the tin?

VW & Audi have cars but have no form for racing recently in Australia
Ford have the Focus but seem utterly disinterested in racing.
Honda I do not think are financial enough to do it.
Hyundai and Kia have done the same trick as VW, and I think could potentially compete.
Mazda seems to be a big miss from this series. But they also don't seem to care about turbo cars, whether they be economy or performance.

I just don't know that there is enough here for TCR to be anything but a class within a class.

Of course this is predicated on "manufacturer" involvement at some level, which may not happen and may not be required.

I'd certainly love to see the viable manufacturers duking it out, representing the brands, as has happened across Europe, just not sure I see it...
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 10:31 (Ref:3794915)   #445
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Nobody is suggesting the ATCC should be contested for TCR! TCR is just a support category, one which would provide a pathway into international FWD touring car racing -- a pathway that is currently lacking Australia.

In the UK there is a strong ladder in front wheel drive. Civic Cup, MINI challenge, Renault Clio Cup, through to TCR and finally up to the iconic BTCC.

In Australia you can go from the state Circuit Excels (or state IPRA under-2000cc) up to nothing. There used to be the MINI series to train FWD skills as a step-up from state Excels, but that has been replaced by RWD Toyota 86s.
Don't get this obsession with FWD cars in racing, how many F1's or any other formula cars, Lemans, Indycar, Drag racers, speedway cars Etc. Etc. Etc. are FWD.
Yes, Classic Mini racing is exciting to watch at times but watching the bash and crash BTCC is painful at best.
Proper race cars are RWD, that's why the Toyota series is popular and there is no FWD series on the horizon.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 10:44 (Ref:3794919)   #446
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Don't get this obsession with FWD cars in racing, how many F1's or any other formula cars, Lemans, Indycar, Drag racers, speedway cars Etc. Etc. Etc. are FWD.
Yes, Classic Mini racing is exciting to watch at times but watching the bash and crash BTCC is painful at best.
Proper race cars are RWD, that's why the Toyota series is popular and there is no FWD series on the horizon.
Aren't touring cars supposed to reflect the marketplace?

Even the Commodore is now a FWD car on the road, so why aren't we racing these in touring cars?
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 18:15 (Ref:3795040)   #447
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Proper race cars are RWD, that's why the Toyota series is popular and there is no FWD series on the horizon.
Why not open the mind to FWD? "This is insanely awesome." For Improved Production racing under 2L, there is no choice for a Honda enthusiast but to use a FWD Civic or Integra, as the RWD S2000 is classed as a sportscar and doesn't qualify for Improved Production (of course, there are anomalies in the rules that allow the "four seat" Nissan Silvia and Mazda RX7 to be considered "touring cars" for Improved Production purposes, IIRC Toyota 86 is similarly eligible and one-make 86s upgraded with some aero and the stickier IPRA tyres have been seen racing in IPRA ).

It would be great if small cheap RWD sporty sedans / hatchbacks were readily available but they are not [with the exception of BMWs, or the Toyota 86 which is a sportscar despite having four nominal seats]. The rest that are available like the Alfa Giulia, Lexus IS, Jaguar XE, Mercedes C class and Infiniti Q50 are often automatic only (yuck) . Otherwise you have the Falcon and VF Commodore which are not nippy, small cars so are ruled out on that basis [it would be great if they were 1350kg like V8 Supercars, but sadly the road models are more like 1800kg!]

In saying that Giulia, C43, Q50 etc would make a great basis for the future of Supercars racing. Supercars would need to adopt a more road relevant formula that would encourage Mercedes, Alfa Romeo etc to become involved.

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Old 26 Jan 2018, 17:17 (Ref:3795288)   #448
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The potential of a Supercars championship running "Mustang", Camaro and GTR is certainly undeniable! Yowzah! They could do worse for a set of new technical regulations than to license Mr. McLeod's creation...

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Old 26 Jan 2018, 22:42 (Ref:3795324)   #449
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The potential of a Supercars championship running "Mustang", Camaro and GTR is certainly undeniable! Yowzah! They could do worse for a set of new technical regulations than to license Mr. McLeod's creation...
All three models are already fully developed as GT cars

Why would you create completely different examples of the same bodyshape just for one localised series?
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Old 27 Jan 2018, 00:52 (Ref:3795349)   #450
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The potential of a Supercars championship running "Mustang", Camaro and GTR is certainly undeniable! Yowzah! They could do worse for a set of new technical regulations than to license Mr. McLeod's creation...

It's not exactly like a new idea, NZV8S did very similarly but with a GM crate instead of Ford.

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