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Old 15 Jun 2017, 03:21 (Ref:3741510)   #51
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sooooooo - a racecar?
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 03:23 (Ref:3741511)   #52
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sooooooo - a racecar?
Hotted up road car
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 03:27 (Ref:3741512)   #53
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Haha I know you are just saying that to get me to lash out at you but it won't work.

I'm reformed. Paul showed me the way.


I've gotta go. Planning a church group retreat. You boys continue to debate this topic and I'll check in again later.
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 04:20 (Ref:3741516)   #54
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Hotted up road car
Constructive as always....
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 04:42 (Ref:3741519)   #55
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Constructive as always....
Well as constructive as this comment.

Probably as constructive as responding to a comment and focusing on one word of the comment rather than the whole sentence

We were discussing costs of motorsport, suddenly you (and others) hijacked the commentary because of one word.

Maybe the word i should have used was professional, instead of real, but it doesnt change my post.

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Old 15 Jun 2017, 05:21 (Ref:3741522)   #56
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Well as constructive as this comment.

Probably as constructive as responding to a comment and focusing on one word of the comment rather than the whole sentence

We were discussing costs of motorsport, suddenly you (and others) hijacked the commentary because of one word.

Maybe the word i should have used was professional, instead of real, but it doesnt change my post.


So you think that the various Tenthers involved with those cars not just as drivers but mechanics, photographers, PR, caterers, truck drivers etc aren't professional?

Give me a break.
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 05:36 (Ref:3741527)   #57
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So you think that the various Tenthers involved with those cars not just as drivers but mechanics, photographers, PR, caterers, truck drivers etc aren't professional?

Give me a break.
FFS

Gentleman drivers, was that not clear to you.

I think most of us are aware of the difference between the two types of racing.
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 05:45 (Ref:3741528)   #58
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so what you are saying is that each brand has an effective control engine, perfect for gentleman racers, Not ideal for real motorsport though


Read your own post again

Is that clear enough?
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 05:50 (Ref:3741529)   #59
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Read your own post again

Is that clear enough?

Great so then, so i will change the one offending word in the quote

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so what you are saying is that each brand has an effective control engine, perfect for gentleman racers, Not ideal for professional motorsport though
I think most of us are aware of the difference between the two types of racing. im hoping you are

Thus the GT3 motors are designed as a control item by the manfacturer which is perfect for gentleman racers. Where as engines in professional motorsport are much more open and allow for development by the individual teams, which is why teams chuck away parts and spend money during development. Which was the conversation we were having at the time

Nothing to do with photgraphers, hairdressers, truck drivers etc.
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 06:01 (Ref:3741530)   #60
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Hence why Supercar engines all have to have the same max power at given rev range?

So Supercar engines are...controlled?
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 06:06 (Ref:3741531)   #61
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Hence why Supercar engines all have to have the same max power at given rev range?

So Supercar engines are...controlled?
Its different, in that motors can still be developed by the teams within some reference points, eg one similar to you have mentioned, along with some control parts. But teams can still develop the motor.

However they dont need to be developed if teams dont want, just teams would fall behind.

surely we are all grown up here and know the difference between the two
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 06:17 (Ref:3741533)   #62
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But still you're saying that those engines are not used in a professional motorsport which is rubbish.

Even if the category is wholly of gentlemen racers (and it isn't as there are plenty of pros) it's still professional motorsport by definition. And by saying otherwise you're slandering the hard work of those who participate whether they be drivers, snappers, truck drivers or yes indeed hairdressers.
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 08:04 (Ref:3741543)   #63
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Aren't GT3 engines being used in the back of some of the new-for-2017 Prototypes in the IMSA Series?

Are we saying that is not professional motorsport? Tell that to the Taylors, Scott Sharp etc etc..
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 08:05 (Ref:3741545)   #64
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Yeah put gt3 in the bin, supercars spend big $$$ chasing a few horsepower, that's the way forward, that's motorsport. Can't see why new/old manufacturer interest is waning, meh, probably unrelated
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 09:42 (Ref:3741555)   #65
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Yeah put gt3 in the bin, supercars spend big $$$ chasing a few horsepower, that's the way forward, that's motorsport. Can't see why new/old manufacturer interest is waning, meh, probably unrelated
Isnt that one of the key reasons why manufactuers are getting into gt4. The gt3 cars were getting too expensive as they chase HP, aero and weight. that they have now had to get into lower cost cars as they were starting to get out of the price of the common person
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 11:44 (Ref:3741587)   #66
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Gentleman drivers, was that not clear to you.
A certain Mr Van Gisbergen may disagree with you. He looks quite handy in a GT3. Wonder how he'd get on in a 'Professional' category?
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3741593)   #67
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But still you're saying that those engines are not used in a professional motorsport which is rubbish.

Even if the category is wholly of gentlemen racers (and it isn't as there are plenty of pros) it's still professional motorsport by definition. And by saying otherwise you're slandering the hard work of those who participate whether they be drivers, snappers, truck drivers or yes indeed hairdressers.
No doubt the work done by the teams and drivers is very professional.

Unfortunately some of the sporting regulations including minimum pit stop times and driver seedings go against this notation of professionalism.

It is very much in the spirit of splendid amateurism prevalent in the British army tank regiments of the Second World War. Apologies if this analogy is too obscure, but I can't think of another comparison.

I follow AGT and have followed sports car racing in Australia for many years. And for most of those years the gentleman driver didn't need minimum pit stop times or driver seedings to be competitive.
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 12:16 (Ref:3741603)   #68
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No offence meant Peckstar but for lack of a better word I fail to see how theirs any validity to your labelling of GT3, as an exemplar look at the Am-Am class from this years Bathurst 12 hour it was fully professional through and through you had the likes of Jamie Whincup partnering with Toni Vilander . Of course yes there's gentleman racers their they are integral part of GT3 but to label it as not real Motorsport is not a fair summation in my view, I hope I have not offended you

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Old 15 Jun 2017, 13:52 (Ref:3741641)   #69
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Isnt that one of the key reasons why manufactuers are getting into gt4. The gt3 cars were getting too expensive as they chase HP, aero and weight. that they have now had to get into lower cost cars as they were starting to get out of the price of the common person
Manufacturers still tip insane amounts of money into GT3 because that's what the people watch. It's retains a good level of privateer and factory interest because in-season development is severely limited and so is the outlay. They have little reason to chase too much HP, Aero or lose weight because every advantage is eventually thwarted by BoP.

I can only suspect that the minimum performance level set by the FIA and tested each September for homologation is a constantly moving goal post that is forcing GT3 speeds up every few years - hence the GT-R, Jaguar and Bentley beginning to drop off.

It is reaching a point of unsustainable cost escalation, however - but I am sceptical every dollar and dime received on a GT3 car only just covers the cost to build it...

Most are only adding GT4 to their inventory (and TCR in some instances) to capture greater market share.

GT4 Europe is still predominantly contested by tuner built models and legacy one-make cars - with the Cayman MR and McLaren 570s slowly starting to take over.

GT4 still costs a bomb - $250k plus for a raft of newer models - well out of reach of most normal people (as is TCR - $100k + is not something most people have laying about for toys).
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 18:16 (Ref:3741796)   #70
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I don't think you understand much about anything
I think you just like to argue because you have no friends
pretty offensive immature response.

A lot of work and expense can be thrown at an engine even with a 'capped' power output.

Engine builders and tuners can spend plenty chasing the delivery of that power, ie where and how it makes it, tractability etc while still arriving at the same peak output as the next bloke.

Engine power delivery can be very specifically and carefully designed for each track.

Others may choose to operate a basic config designed for high mileage for instance.

I could continue to elaborate but hopefully you are starting to grasp the concept that others are discussing and have a more considerate response 👍

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Old 15 Jun 2017, 21:43 (Ref:3742004)   #71
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A lot of work and expense can be thrown at an engine even with a 'capped' power output.

Engine builders and tuners can spend plenty chasing the delivery of that power, ie where and how it makes it, tractability etc while still arriving at the same peak output as the next bloke.

Engine power delivery can be very specifically and carefully designed for each track.

Others may choose to operate a basic config designed for high mileage for instance.

I could continue to elaborate but hopefully you are starting to grasp the concept that others are discussing and have a more considerate response 👍

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Well described. thank you
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Old 15 Jun 2017, 23:05 (Ref:3742039)   #72
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Originally Posted by simon5574 View Post
A lot of work and expense can be thrown at an engine even with a 'capped' power output.

Engine builders and tuners can spend plenty chasing the delivery of that power, ie where and how it makes it, tractability etc while still arriving at the same peak output as the next bloke.

Engine power delivery can be very specifically and carefully designed for each track.

Others may choose to operate a basic config designed for high mileage for instance.

I could continue to elaborate but hopefully you are starting to grasp the concept that others are discussing and have a more considerate response 👍

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
Not to mention fuel economy, CoG, rotating mass and a raft of other items - you've nailed it with that post Simon.

Those suggesting that a capped power output means no development simply have no idea what they're talking about.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 00:17 (Ref:3742046)   #73
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The only difference is in Supercars the teams develop the engine
In GT3 its the manufacturer

Both produce engines worthy of real & professional motorsport


And please keep the personal insults to a minimum. Woolley has warned us and straight away there have been posts saying I am *mmature offensive'and then 'no idea what i am talking about'


Both personal attacks. I hope the moderators are watching
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 00:40 (Ref:3742051)   #74
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Both produce engines worthy of real & professional motorsport

Sadly the spectacle is often ruined by "every child wins a prize sporting regulations".

How many times do we see races spoiled by a combination of minimum pitstop times based on driver seedings and safety car intervention?
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 03:06 (Ref:3742062)   #75
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Sadly the spectacle is often ruined by "every child wins a prize sporting regulations".

How many times do we see races spoiled by a combination of minimum pitstop times based on driver seedings and safety car intervention?
If Supercars went to the GT3 regs for example those rules wouldn't be applied. So it's a non discussion point.
Those rules are applied to allow gentleman drivers to race with other gentleman as well as pros.

I'm not for a second saying one is better than the other because both have their place. Currently though Supercars have an issue of not being able to attract and maintain manufacturer interest.
I think if they did adopt GT3 regs the teams in the series would lift GT3 to entirely new level. I think it has the potential to become the epitome of the GT world quite easily and would be fantastic to watch.
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