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Old 18 Jun 2017, 09:31 (Ref:3744360)   #126
Oldtony
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Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
sorry, no idea what you are talking about and its relevance to the discussion on TCR being a replacement for supercars
I think the subject was a little wider than that Percky.

And perhaps it should be even wider as this discussion seems a little tunnel visioned towards tin top racing.
While that has been the dominant form of the sport in Australia for around 40 years it is understandable that many in this thread limit their thinking to "a replacement for V8SC".
In most other countries in the world GT/Sedan racing is only part of the local mainstream. Most have a significant open-wheeler and sports car season.
Yes the millennials are not attracted to what we are offering, and if we keep on with more of the same the sport will suffer the same fate as the Gooney Bird.
We need to offer a broader product hence the reason to look at things like F5000 and other classes on the program.
We need to have a close look at what is circulating in the games market, and GT3 and open wheelers abound there.
And we need to go the "Carnival" route and make meetings an event.
And most of all an open mind is required if any part of circuit racing is to survive digital disruption.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 19:24 (Ref:3744944)   #127
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Drive tests the TCR Audi

If Supercars cease to exist, this is the obvious replacement, not GT3.
Or GT4. Porsche and BMW have one already. Ford, Mercedes and Audi will join soon.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 21:56 (Ref:3744994)   #128
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Or GT4. Porsche and BMW have one already. Ford, Mercedes and Audi will join soon.
I cant see Gt4 being the replacement, they have similar pace to a TCR, well off the supercars pace. (10-15 Seconds)
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 05:12 (Ref:3745064)   #129
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Or GT4. Porsche and BMW have one already. Ford, Mercedes and Audi will join soon.
McLaren and KTM also have GT4 cars.

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I cant see Gt4 being the replacement, they have similar pace to a TCR, well off the supercars pace. (10-15 Seconds)
You seem to be hung up on pace. Pace is relative, not absolute.

If the entire field of cars is within 1-2 seconds of each other as it is now, you won't be able to tell that they are slower.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 07:47 (Ref:3745091)   #130
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You seem to be hung up on pace. Pace is relative, not absolute.

If the entire field of cars is within 1-2 seconds of each other as it is now, you won't be able to tell that they are slower.

I'm not sure what "Pace is relative, not absolute" really means, sounds like some new age thing that sounds great but means little, but ok that's awesome. I suspect it will mean that the long term fans will leave in droves.
Reading the super ute thread is would seem speed is more important than you are thinking

Neither TCR or Gt4 is achieving the 1-2 seconds a you mentioned.

But based on your theory maybe we should just have production cars. Relatively cheap, parts available reasonably easily. Lots of brands Maybe just a hot hatch series might be the way to go

Last edited by peckstar; 19 Jun 2017 at 08:02.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 08:05 (Ref:3745103)   #131
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I suspect it will mean that the long term fans will leave in droves.
Did long term fans leave when Group C was dropped for slower Group A cars in 1985?

Did long term fans leave when Group A was dropped for slower Commodore & Falcon V8s in 1993?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 08:07 (Ref:3745104)   #132
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Did long term fans leave when Group C was dropped for slower Group A cars in 1985?

Did long term fans leave when Group A was dropped for slower Commodore & Falcon V8s in 1993?
1993 bathurst qualifying time was quicker that 1992 qualifying time.

TCR and GT4 lap times would be at least 3 seconds and possibly more seconds slower than the 1992 time. at least ten seconds slower than now

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Old 19 Jun 2017, 08:50 (Ref:3745113)   #133
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I'm not sure what "Pace is relative, not absolute" really means, sounds like some new age thing that sounds great but means little, but ok that's awesome.
Constructive post.

How much can the fan on the hill, tell the difference in pace/ speed? If the cars race well and its close - is that not entertainment?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 08:53 (Ref:3745115)   #134
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1993 bathurst qualifying time was quicker that 1992 qualifying time.

TCR and GT4 lap times would be at least 3 seconds and possibly more seconds slower than the 1992 time. at least ten seconds slower than now


Lap times don't mean everything. When I was at B12 and IPRA came on a lot of people in my group stayed to watch instead of hitting the burger van, some of those being long time fans and some who were new to motorsport but enjoyed the variety of cars in the field and the racing that resulted.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 09:14 (Ref:3745120)   #135
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Originally Posted by D.R.T. View Post
How much can the fan on the hill, tell the difference in pace/ speed? If the cars race well and its close - is that not entertainment?
They certainly can tell the difference between fast and slow.

So... Let's just use GT3 cars, they have heaps of downforce and are by far the fastest option?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 09:19 (Ref:3745121)   #136
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When I was at B12 and IPRA came on a lot of people in my group stayed to watch instead of hitting the burger van, some of those being long time fans and some who were new to motorsport but enjoyed the variety of cars in the field and the racing that resulted.
IPRA is fun though, and IPRA cars are quite heavily modified. They are allowed aero, they are allowed porting, cams, pistons, rods (even different engine than original), they are allowed individual throttle bodies, they are allowed racing dogboxes (as long as they use a H-pattern). They are allowed fabricated suspension control arms (as long as they are close to the original pick-up points and design).

The only real "slowing down" restriction on IPRA are the narrow 225 tyres mandated and the small budgets of competitors (or the air restrictor on turbos, but turbos are boring ).

A IPRA car built on a V8 Supercar budget would be VERY sophisticated!
You could potentially build a 1000kg 300hp 2000cc monster ( a pseduo-Super-Touring car ) under the regulations.

The cars in the Bathurst 6 hour with the production car regulations are a lot, lot more standard (engines must be completely stock internally etc).
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 09:38 (Ref:3745129)   #137
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Constructive post.

How much can the fan on the hill, tell the difference in pace/ speed? If the cars race well and its close - is that not entertainment?
that was not my post, it wasnt even a full sentence of what i wrote. Why would you do that?

So super utes is fine then? the super utes thread suggest speed is an issue, but then you and otehrs are arguing that it is not an issue? Sorry, you can see why that confuses me.

And the guy on the hill is smarter than you it appears, they can tell the difference, always have been , 10 seconds a lap is a lot, enough that it will kill main stream motorsport in Australia, never have we gone backwards that far
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 09:44 (Ref:3745131)   #138
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Anyone know what lap times the TCR Audi churned out at PI the other week?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 09:45 (Ref:3745132)   #139
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Lap times don't mean everything. When I was at B12 and IPRA came on a lot of people in my group stayed to watch instead of hitting the burger van, some of those being long time fans and some who were new to motorsport but enjoyed the variety of cars in the field and the racing that resulted.
Yyou took me out context anyway, and you are right, they dont mean everything, but they mean a lot,

Not all the people in your group i noticed, and you were talking about a small crowd to start with. People have an interest, im not denying that, but the crowds will diminish significantly and that's the end of mainstream motorsport, weve already seen how difiicult it is to get a FTA package for supercars, motorsport is already struggling
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:17 (Ref:3745143)   #140
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Interesting topic given the current situation with the demise in locally manufactured touring cars. The original concept of V8SC (as they were) was the traditional Holden vs Ford fight, which has now been pretty much extinguished with the exit of both manufacturers from the local scene. Sure they will have imported models seeking to fulfill the role of the previous Commodore and Falcon models but without a V8 engine it won't be the same.
As far as the 'millenials' (for wont of a better name) interest in Supercars racing goes, I really believe that overall they have minimal interest in motorsport as a whole. Their cheap Hyundai/Kia/Toyota is solely a means to commute to Uni and back! I guess I'm lucky to have two that have an interest in motorsport, but is that due to my 40+ years in motorsport that has influenced them?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:24 (Ref:3745150)   #141
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that was not my post, it wasnt even a full sentence of what i wrote. Why would you do that?

So super utes is fine then? the super utes thread suggest speed is an issue, but then you and otehrs are arguing that it is not an issue? Sorry, you can see why that confuses me.

And the guy on the hill is smarter than you it appears, they can tell the difference, always have been , 10 seconds a lap is a lot, enough that it will kill main stream motorsport in Australia, never have we gone backwards that far
It was a full sentence, full stop and all in DRT's quote.

Not sure what is better/worse: fast cars with no manufacturer interest so they die, or slower cars with alleged no spectator interest, so they die. Catch22
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:30 (Ref:3745152)   #142
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It was a full sentence, full stop and all in DRT's quote.

Not sure what is better/worse: fast cars with no manufacturer interest so they die, or slower cars with alleged no spectator interest, so they die. Catch22
you are right, It wasnt a full paragraph, My error. Thank you for coming to his aid, he needs your protection. Maybe you can come to my protection when people quote me out of context like DRT managed to do

Do we need manufacturer interest? or do we just need a manufacturer to allow their shape to be used?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:34 (Ref:3745153)   #143
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How do we envigorate an aging and deminishing fanbase, whilst reaching out to a generation that is less-interested in motorsport than the last?

Surely trotting out the same thing over and over again isn't going to work. It's certainly not working with sponsors or manufacturers.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:37 (Ref:3745154)   #144
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1993 bathurst qualifying time was quicker that 1992 qualifying time.
Unless 2m13s laps by Larry Perkins around Bathurst is quicker than 2m12s laps by Dick Johnson the year before, I think you are off the mark with that one.


NASCAR has proved time and time again that outright speed on a road coarse has absolutely nothing to do with turning fans away. If speed is what mattered IMSA and Indycar would be packing the stands in the USA, not NASCAR.

To use this line of argument against another racing series is ridiculous.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:53 (Ref:3745156)   #145
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Unless 2m13s laps by Larry Perkins around Bathurst is quicker than 2m12s laps by Dick Johnson the year before, I think you are off the mark with that one.


NASCAR has proved time and time again that outright speed on a road coarse has absolutely nothing to do with turning fans away. If speed is what mattered IMSA and Indycar would be packing the stands in the USA, not NASCAR.

To use this line of argument against another racing series is ridiculous.
seriusly dude, straw clutching, that was shoot out for a start and then you rounded down the 1992 time by nearly a whole second (0.898) to get your number, why would you mislead like that

1992 qualifying was mark skaife 2.13.82 (top ten was bowe 2.12.898)
1993 qualifying was Larry 2.12.86 (top ten was larry 2.13.013)

your trying to drag in two rounds of a 36 round season of NASCAR and compare it to two different series to justify an argument thats its not about speed. Come on, why even try that.

My argument is that that fans will not accept a ten second lap decrease in the series they watch.
If it was about outright speed then the bathurst 12 hour would draw the biggest crowd. clearly its more than just speed thats important. But ten seconds a lap will be a turn off big chunks of crowd
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:55 (Ref:3745157)   #146
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How do we envigorate an aging and deminishing fanbase, whilst reaching out to a generation that is less-interested in motorsport than the last?

Surely trotting out the same thing over and over again isn't going to work. It's certainly not working with sponsors or manufacturers.
i dont think we can
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:59 (Ref:3745159)   #147
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Is the current "close racing" really what we want?
I would suggest that it is part of the problem rathewr than part of the solution.
Watching Darwin on the box at weekend and there was certainly no shortage of close racing. THe parity police have got it absolutely right with a minimal DIFFERENCE IN PERFORMANCE over the entire field. There were small differences in driver ability, tyre strategy and car set up, but as one of those millennials we are talking about said to me before going back to his screen:
"Looks like Bundall Rd speeded up a bit, but all the cars are the same, just different paint jobs and stickers".
Somehow we need to get away from this constant SAMENESS both in cars and levels of performance.
Over the years the high points of spectating or TV watching have been watching DIFFERENT cars compete with each other. FJ Holden v Mk2 Jag, Cortina v Studebaker Lark Mustang v Mini LJ XU1 v GT Falcon and so on. Motor racing is not attracting a new audience because there is no variety, either within the top classes or across the program of races.
THe challenge is not just to find a new breed of tin top but to find a whole new range of race cars.
Pecky, given variety, spectacle and something that the fan can call new the existing ones will have new enthusiasm and a whole range of new ones will emerge to replace us old farts as we getpast it.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 11:01 (Ref:3745160)   #148
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seriusly dude, straw clutching, that was shoot out for a start and then you rounded down the 1992 time by nearly a whole second (0.898) to get your number, why would you mislead like that

1992 qualifying was mark skaife 2.13.82 (top ten was bowe 2.12.898)
1993 qualifying was Larry 2.12.86 (top ten was larry 2.13.013)

your trying to drag in two rounds of a 36 round season of NASCAR and compare it to two different series to justify an argument thats its not about speed. Come on, why even try that.

My argument is that that fans will not accept a ten second lap decrease in the series they watch.
If it was about outright speed then the bathurst 12 hour would draw the biggest crowd. clearly its more than just speed thats important. But ten seconds a lap will be a turn off big chunks of crowd
Yep, ok

Last time I checked the Shootouts were qualifying, and what about all the other tracks in 1993 compared to 1992?

Only two rounds? Indycar race on quite a few of the same tracks as NASCAR, and are quicker on all of them, yet they only out-spectator the NASCAR's at one track, Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Fans will happily accept a ten-second a lap difference if they are being told its the same series with the same drivers & teams competing in the Clipsal 500, Townsville 400, Sandown 500, Bathurst, Darwin Triple Crown etc etc...
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 11:01 (Ref:3745161)   #149
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I'm not sure what "Pace is relative, not absolute" really means, sounds like some new age thing that sounds great but means little, but ok that's awesome.
It means as long as the cars are close, and make the right noises, Av. Joe Punter isn't going to notice that the cars are slow.

Here's an example. How much faster than V8 utes are the Stadium Trucks? And how many people flock to the fences to watch the Trucks?

The trucks are loud, look fast and are close when they race. The utes are loud, look fast and are close when they race. Does that help explain it?


As a follow up, seeing as you have plenty of opinion as to what won't work; what do you see as the saviour of all that burns hydrocarbons and attracts people to the trackside?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 11:08 (Ref:3745164)   #150
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The Supercar fanbase is a stubborn one and unfortunately I can't really see how anything other than the current formula will result in anything but a loss of numbers. So it becomes a case of how it's managed to still be exciting, loud and fast but sustainable for the teams and sponsors. GT3 isn't the answer imo, it's equally expensive and doesn't appear to offer the same level of excitement for the aussie fanbase, though perhaps down to a lack of names driving them. A 2L formula with some FWD cars will have bogans up in arms and don't see that being successful either.

Truth is, a supercar can cost less than it does and I don't see why the formula can't survive with good leadership manning the ship. There's really no need to be jumping to another ship. We're not past the point of no return yet.
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