Virgin and Lotus want blue flags Banned

[climb]

I don't agree with blue flag ban: they help leaders not being disturbed by backmarkers and help backmarkers not being disturbed by leaders.

However, overall I think is not a topic of paramount importance

[Urgentemente]

Originally Posted by Hungary 89

Don't get me wrong I'm quite happy we've got some new teams in the mix but sorry folks but if you want more airtime your just going to have to build a faster Car and mix it with the big boys.

I quite agree.
I was a bit of a supporter for Spyker in their shortlived ownership having visited theirm at a testing day, and they were almost always at the back of the field. Now , albeit as Force India they are regularly near the front. Whilst I think the lead teams/drivers should be able to get past back markers with reasonable ease, I'd hate to see a race (or championship..) ruined by a back marker who just decided to be 'stubborn' on a particular day.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

You said marshals misjudge when to wave the blue flag. It isn't a judgement they make in this case.

That's the second time I've been told it's not their decision!

But that wasn't what I was getting at. I was talking about the problem of blue flags being waved too early, whether the fault be race control's, the marshals's, or Lewis Hamilton's.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I like the Blue flags, they add a colorful dimension.

I prefer the slippery track flag for that.

[wnut]

Maybe Virgin and Lotus should just concentrate on getting on the pace.
If they were in danger of scoring any points then the Blue Flags would automatically cease to be a problem.

How about they black flag any competitor who gets lapped twice!

[old man]

As a driver who, in quite a short racing career saw a lot of blue flags I always appreciated being shown a blue when a faster car was approaching and a waved blue when his pass was imminent, it stopped you being knocked off in the overtaking manouvre as I almost was once by Andy Barton in a libre race at Croft!!!

They are entitled to make the point, gets them in the papers like X factor decisons

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Watching the backmarkers instantly tripping over themselves to get out the way annoys me.

Totally agree..... sometimes it looks every bit like a blatant team orders scenario to me, with cars pulling off line at odd parts of the track and slowing right up. It all looks so ordered and non F1 to me. Plus it is often right at a time when the about to be lapped car is dicing with another.

I think perhaps that the blue should not be shown until the driver being lapped has had an opportunity to allow the following car past with minimum delay to both. By all means show a blue to someone not acting in the spirit of that.

To a certain degree backmarkers are a part of motor racing and often their interference will prolong and enhance a dice.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

But that wasn't what I was getting at. I was talking about the problem of blue flags being waved too early, whether the fault be race control's, the marshals's, or Lewis Hamilton's.

Some people, honestly - they'll blame Lewis for anything

I read somewhere recently that in F1 once a lapping car is within 3s of a car to be lapped, race control start to tell marshals to throw the blue flag. 3s might not seem like much, but it could take a whole lap to make that time up.

I far prefer the "flag marshal reads the race" approach which is used... well, everywhere else. Blue flagging is bloody hard to do, properly - and very easy to get wrong (I know I've cocked it up more than once in the last year). You have to keep the race order in your head, taking into account pit stops and so on.
In every other series under FIA regs (or MSA regs) the blue flag is *advisory* and is not an instruction, and the driver to whom it is shown should "let the following car pass at the next available safe opportunity".

[ECW Dan Selby]

I think to a certain degree, anyone's entitled to voice their opinion about F1 if they're in F1.

As far as the blue flags are concerned, I supported this notion at first but the more I think about it, I think the more we do actually need them.

Selby

[strider]

The real answer is for Virgin and Lotus to get their cars closer to the pace. I know that sounds harsh, but it's a fact.

Until then, yes, we do need blue flags. I read an interesting article that said that in the Webber/Hamilton incident in Singapore the driver to blame was neither of them but Di Grassi. Debatable, but an interesting point of view.

[stripedcat]

Well Virgin and Lotus are entitled to their opinion on this matter. I sort of agree that it would be nice to see more onus on the leading cars overtaking the back markers. Martin Brundle has commented on it a couple of times during races that it was a skill that drivers had to have, and how he would like to see it back.

If you watch some of the old races from the 1980s(or earlier) you'll see how it didn't allow the leading car to make too much of a getaway. Indeed it was a good way of overtaking the leading car with Senna using it against Prost a few times, I can also remember the 1987 Austrian Grand Prix and Mansell getting the jump on Piquet when they were lapping backmarkers, plus the famous 1989 Hungary race.

I however accept there is a massive flaw with going back to a more looser system of blue flag waving in that the big problem in F1 is the "dirty air" coming off the leading car. Plus in places like Monaco it would have to be in place. Indeed that is why the blue flag system is a lot more rigid nowadays.

[JABWOA]

Simple rule fix - return the blue to an advisory flag not a command flag and educate drivers to give each other more respect. Plus fix the fact an F1 car cant pass while in the draft.

[hgmonaro]

Originally Posted by strider

Until then, yes, we do need blue flags. I read an interesting article that said that in the Webber/Hamilton incident in Singapore the driver to blame was neither of them but Di Grassi. Debatable, but an interesting point of view.

Not to mention the safety car that bunched them up in the 1st place.

I'd be inclined to relax the blue flags to advisory IF lapped cars were sent to the back (reorder them into race order but don't give them back a lap) of the queue at restarts. I don't think the guy that's just received the benefit of closing up the gap should also given the benefit of a moving chicane to help him past someone.

[Teretonga]

I am not worried about the effect of the safety car but I am against abolishing the blue flag entirely. That is a nonsense.

[6157]

Originally Posted by Wims

Not nearly as irritated as i felt when i realized that Ferrari had veto powers to deny new rules.

If Ferrari can do it, don't see why a 20th place team can do it.

Well except for the hundreds of millions behind Ferrari.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by strider

The real answer is for Virgin and Lotus to get their cars closer to the pace. I know that sounds harsh, but it's a fact.

Then what do you do about the next new team to join, then the next one?

New teams cannot hope to get off the back in their first year, and the over zealous use of the blue flag doesn't help with the viewing. Although the slow car should be made aware of cars coming up behind, i dont think they should be penalised for not getting out of the way within three corners. A lap maybe?

[chillibowl]

there must be a fear that back markers may end up causing some trouble for the title leaders as the championship comes down to the wire. getting rid of them must sound like an outrageous suggestion at this point in the season so I can't help but wonder if Virgin's position is just posturing for something else, but why not get rid of them?

at the beginning of the year everyone was worried that the new teams would ruin everything but that has not happened. in fact the opposite has a occurred...ultimately the teams and drivers respect each other and no one wants to ruin someone else's race. that should be enough.

as has been mentioned already, passing back markers used to be a skill, along with managing tires and building engines that don't blow up on tv. I think the undercurrent here is the systematic removal of every random element from a race and in the end we will just get more processional races.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The Blue flag has worked fine over the years; it's one of those 'Ain't broke don't fix it.' scenarios. Any way why are Virgin and Lotus complaining about the Blue flag now, it's not as if it's suddenly been thrust on them?

[strider]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Then what do you do about the next new team to join, then the next one?

New teams cannot hope to get off the back in their first year, and the over zealous use of the blue flag doesn't help with the viewing. Although the slow car should be made aware of cars coming up behind, i dont think they should be penalised for not getting out of the way within three corners. A lap maybe?

No, I stick to what I said originally. It's a variation on the "If you can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen" theme.

All the signs are that Lotus will be much more competitive last year. They've already lined up Red Bell gearboxes and transmissions and I don't think you do that unless you're going to have Renault engines on the way, so that means they will have the same basic components as Red Bull. All they have to do then is come up with a design that's as good as of Adrian Newey and his team!

To be honest, Virgin have not impressed me at any stage, which is a shame because Glock, in particular, and Di Grassi are decent pedallers and deserve to be in F1. The whole business about designing a car with a fuel tank that was too small struck me as ridiculous and, although I'm sure Nick Wirth would disagree, I don't think the CFD route has proved to be a success except in terms of cost reduction.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by strider

No, I stick to what I said originally. It's a variation on the "If you can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen" theme.

All the signs are that Lotus will be much more competitive last year. They've already lined up Red Bell gearboxes and transmissions and I don't think you do that unless you're going to have Renault engines on the way, so that means they will have the same basic components as Red Bull. All they have to do then is come up with a design that's as good as of Adrian Newey and his team!

To be honest, Virgin have not impressed me at any stage, which is a shame because Glock, in particular, and Di Grassi are decent pedallers and deserve to be in F1. The whole business about designing a car with a fuel tank that was too small struck me as ridiculous and, although I'm sure Nick Wirth would disagree, I don't think the CFD route has proved to be a success except in terms of cost reduction.

But they can stand the heat - I guess they just don't like having their race with their peers ruined by some ponce in a faster car being given track preference, and possibly causing them to lose places unfairly during the changeover. Rememebr these guys are often racing, not just bimbling along at the back by themselves.

Anyway, re: CFD - its one of those things that get better the more empirical data you stuff at it, so Virgin should improve as well given the data they have generated this year. I hope.

[Paarma]

Well, they could reinstate the 107% qualifying rule

But seriously, the backmarkers cause enough chaos as it is. It would be sad if the championship was decided by a rookie driver crashing into the race leader during the last GP.

[Teretonga]

I am sure the established teams would not want to get rid of the blue flag.....

The FIA could do what the CIK do in World Championship karting..... You have to retire once lapped or about to be lapped. I am sure Richard B would accept that as the cost of his campaign to get rid of the blue flag.....Not!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paarma

Well, they could reinstate the 107% qualifying rule

But seriously, the backmarkers cause enough chaos as it is. It would be sad if the championship was decided by a rookie driver crashing into the race leader during the last GP.

Maaybe it already was when Kovalainnen in a LOTUS took it on himself the defend against Webber. Not lapping, but not even nearly in the same race!

[Marbot]

AFAIK the 107% rule is to be reinstated next season.

Shouldn't need blue flags anyway. Just better mirrors.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

Maaybe it already was when Kovalainnen in a LOTUS took it on himself the defend against Webber. Not lapping, but not even nearly in the same race!

You said it - "Not lapping"

HK was entirely right to try and prevent MW from overtaking - they WERE in the same race ON THE SAME LAP. Why the hell should he just let him by? Its Webber's job, as a racing driver, to overtake cars in front of him he is racing, not the drivers job to just let him past. Had HW been in the situation of being lapped, then it would become his job to get out of the way. But not if on the same lap. I believe that is the point at which cars are referred to as racing together, much as it may seen odd to many F1 viewers.

Would everyone prefer that F1 becomes a spec series where all cars are the same speed? That would negate the need for blue flags altogether.

F1 cannot survive without new teams (who will always be slow at first), but it seem that people on here don't want new teams because they 'upset' all those poor people at the front who woudl actually have to overtake them. Strange.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Would everyone prefer that F1 becomes a spec series where all cars are the same speed? That would negate the need for blue flags altogether.

I think that you'll find that GP2 etc still have them. But I see your point.

Originally Posted by JamesH

F1 cannot survive without new teams (who will always be slow at first), but it seem that people on here don't want new teams because they 'upset' all those poor people at the front who woudl actually have to overtake them. Strange.

Why anyone other than Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull bother to turn up for any race is quite beyond me.