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Old 17 Sep 2013, 07:37 (Ref:3305034)   #201
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Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
NO , he is not great!
Just as Schumi is not great.
The results they have ARE GREAT thou.

Both are very good but they both has that little something that makes no sense , that feeling that they are cheeting ore just do not care.

Someone thats great i truly beloved and even liked by the opponents.
I agree to a certain extent, although Vettel has not yet plumbed the depths of Schumacher (or Senna) and probably never will!

Your last line is interesting though, F1 has become so monetised and serious that it is truly hard to remember a champion, indeed any driver, who was truly liked by opponents. Has there been any since the 80's? Damon Hill perhaps? I get the impression they barely even glance at each other nowadays should they accidentally find themselves in the same room as one another.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 10:31 (Ref:3305130)   #202
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Vettel and Schumacher are both 'greats'. To deny that, is to deny what they achieved and how they did it. They've also had to put up with the full torrent of internet forum abuse. Such as Senna, Prost, and others, were generally spared that ordeal.

I also think that Button is probably the most 'likeable' champion in a long while. Certainly amongst the current champions.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 10:41 (Ref:3305134)   #203
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Face it, if you aren't being cheered or jeered you are a nobody.
antonio felix da costa said something after he won on sunday that was quite relevant to this. he said that he didn't mind pressure, because it means that people are watching and paying attention. it's worse when there's no pressure at all, because it means no-one cares.

i thought that was a fair comment, and it applies to both reaction from the fans and from the media, teams, etc.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 12:52 (Ref:3305215)   #204
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I don't think popularity is any metric for greatness and I actually think breaking the rules could be a metric of greatness. I mean rules as in not conspiracy to cheat or gain an unfair engineering advantage or stuff of that sort but an arrogant and upfront display that the driver in question *thinks* he is bigger than the sport. If Vettel was honest about what he was up to instead of cowardly squirming when he turned over Webber I'd have more time for him. I'd still dislike him but I'd have more time for him.

For me to consider Vettel a great would be a clear demonstration of him transcending his machinery and beating an opponent of equal rank in a car of roughly equivalent stature. There's certainly greatness in winning those championships but right now there's a lingering ambiguity as to whether that 'greatness' is attributable to the Neweymobile or the driver. That part is not really Vettel's fault, btw, I don't expect him to resign and go to an inferior team. It's a sign of the times and of circumstance.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 14:44 (Ref:3305248)   #205
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i think your beef with him is more to do with what the media chooses to show you rather than the man he actually is.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 17:51 (Ref:3305317)   #206
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It's a sign of the times and of circumstance.
It's always been the same, and the cars are so much closer in performance now. Gone are the days when a Minardi got lapped three or four times during a race. Sure, it may be all down to fine details, but Vettel is so much better at that stuff than any other contemporary F1 driver, barring perhaps schumacher.

I should also say that Vettel would be a fool to leave Red Bull when he's managed to get the car he wants by being able to tell his engineers what he wants from a car that has got a few updates on. No one does that better than Vettel.

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Old 17 Sep 2013, 21:25 (Ref:3305437)   #207
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i think your beef with him is more to do with what the media chooses to show you rather than the man he actually is.
I don't consult anything other than trade media, those lifestyle segments Sky throws at us and published trade media. I have no insight to him beyond his own acts post-race.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 21:27 (Ref:3305438)   #208
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It's always been the same, and the cars are so much closer in performance now. Gone are the days when a Minardi got lapped three or four times during a race. Sure, it may be all down to fine details, but Vettel is so much better at that stuff than any other contemporary F1 driver, barring perhaps schumacher.

I should also say that Vettel would be a fool to leave Red Bull when he's managed to get the car he wants by being able to tell his engineers what he wants from a car that has got a few updates on. No one does that better than Vettel.
There's been a revolution of the sport on a number of fronts which we've gone through at various stages in this thread. On present trends he'll fit into the same slot as Piquet who is hotly contested as a 'great' on different criteria. There can never be a Fangio or Clark who accomplished great feats in uncertain machinery but maybe there will be another great if that driver tests himself against a roughly equal opponent in roughly equal machinery. There's always going to be a question mark if Vettel spends his career waltzing past the chequered flag in nothing other than a Neweymobile and with an inferior teammate. That's if one measures greatness as something more than a cold statistical equation. I'm not saying that's Vettel's fault, either btw just time and circumstances.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 21:28 (Ref:3305440)   #209
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Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
It's always been the same, and the cars are so much closer in performance now. Gone are the days when a Minardi got lapped three or four times during a race. Sure, it may be all down to fine details, but Vettel is so much better at that stuff than any other contemporary F1 driver, barring perhaps schumacher.

I should also say that Vettel would be a fool to leave Red Bull when he's managed to get the car he wants by being able to tell his engineers what he wants from a car that has got a few updates on. No one does that better than Vettel.
There were times when Minardi were on the front three rows..... Only during the later days when Stoddart had no money for anything did they become the perennial tail enders. But the earlier era was classic F1. That's different from what we have now.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 22:36 (Ref:3305472)   #210
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There were times when Minardi were on the front three rows..... Only during the later days when Stoddart had no money for anything did they become the perennial tail enders. But the earlier era was classic F1. That's different from what we have now.
Yes, oh yes ? Those times were so rare that I can't quite remember all of them... but I used to love them, they were a great team.
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Old 17 Sep 2013, 22:58 (Ref:3305494)   #211
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It's always been the same, and the cars are so much closer in performance now. Gone are the days when a Minardi got lapped three or four times during a race. Sure, it may be all down to fine details, but Vettel is so much better at that stuff than any other contemporary F1 driver, barring perhaps schumacher.

I should also say that Vettel would be a fool to leave Red Bull when he's managed to get the car he wants by being able to tell his engineers what he wants from a car that has got a few updates on. No one does that better than Vettel.
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