Problems with F1 - Singapore

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yeah after watching that footage, that was pretty dangerous and did deserve to get 1/3 of a penalty for it (with the other two reprimands making up the other 2/3rds).

What if the Mercedes actually bowled straight into Alonso, breaking his legs, or killing him? That would be a disaster for F1, 1994 all over again.

What really was the point of picking him up anyway? Is it really that difficult for Alonso to get a ride back safely like everyone else out of the race has to do? Mark we know you're besties with RB's/Vettels arch-nemesis, Mark, (and strongly dislike your own teammate/team) but you don't have to screw your own team over by getting penalities for your public display of affection.

Oh duh I keep thinking webber picked up alonso, it was the other way around. Yeah what alonso did was the worse part of it, stopping right on the racing line.

[Paradise City]

I was willing to give it all a free pass with bubbly memories of Mansell giving Senna a lift from back when the sun shined brighter and the summer never ended but looking at the footage it's eerily reminiscent of the Tom Pryce tragedy. With penalties applied and justified, I now consider the matter closed.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

But Alonso also knows the rules, and should surely know that he's stopping HIS car in a tight street circuit. That's nothing to do with Mark Webber...

...and anyway, Webber's penalty was for entering parc ferme without marshal permission or something along those lines.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I am totally against giving competitive penalties for non-competitive racing incidents.

i now also understand that this is a rule and its not like it was a secret rule but completely agree with you that there should never be a competitive penalty for a non competitive infraction.

for example, given that he already had two driving reprimands and then said something stupid (like getting a reprimand for swearing on the podium) and then he got a grid drop because he hit the magic number would anyone be saying this is a reasonable rule?

probably going in a weird way with this next point, but thinking about the rules, back in the day (maybe its still a rule i dont know) a driver was not allowed to hug a team mechanic for fear that that mechanic may slip something into the drivers pocket in order to alter the final weigh in. its F1 and everything is measured so doing anything or letting anyone but a marshal/steward touch your car prior to the final measurements should be considered a competitive violation no?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by GolddustMini

.

hulkenberg call was rubbish though

Agreed, a totally crass call!

[Lancsbreaker]

Knowing how fast these guy's minds work, I did wonder if Alonso realised what the outcome of his "charitable" act would be, and figured removing Mark from the front of the grid next race might just benefit his own title chances, and of course that of his employers........(lol)

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

He picked up a reprimand, same as Webber.

As the sportings regs say, (I'm paraphrasing slightly) when a penalty has to be applied and two of the three reprimands are for driving conduct (in Webbers case for collision and not slowing down under yellows) then a grid penalty is applied.

All seems like the regs have been followed in this case.

• Two drivers muck about on track, both get a reprimand, because one driver already has 2 reprimands this triggers a penalty and because the 2 other reprimands are for driving standards he gets a grid place drop.

Doesn't sound so "controversial" now, does it?

Yes it is. For me it is still an issue.
Because: I think the penalty is inappropriate to the offence. In that case the penalty and the process is unjust. A judicial process is more about justice than it is enforcing the rules. Penalties also need to be just and appropriate to the offence.

[Aysedasi]

I tend to agree. I was initially unaware of Mark's 'pre-cons', but this is the problem with having an automatic penalty; you run the risk of a minor transgression (or a non-competitive transgression) triggering an over-the-top competitive sanction. If you're going to give a panel of stewards the discretion to determine whether there has been a transgression, give them discretion over the penalty to be applied as well....

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Knowing how fast these guy's minds work, I did wonder if Alonso realised what the outcome of his "charitable" act would be, and figured removing Mark from the front of the grid next race might just benefit his own title chances, and of course that of his employers........(lol)

Or he just thought he'd give him a lift.

Assuming that he did think all that, he would also have to realise that he would need to do it in a particularly dangerous way while the CCTV camera, which he'd presumably clocked before, saw him to attract a penalty. He would also have realised that the penalty was far from assured. And that he purposely doing it in a dangerous way, risking everyone involved, he thought that risk was worthwhile.

My theory is that Alonso, being clever, didn't consider this

[chunder]

Lets face it, there is so much wrong with F1 right now who are we to think anyone takes any notice?

And why did a lot of it come to be? Coz one team with only one driver dominated the sport for years and made it a mockery to the point people stopped watching.

Ring any bells?

[Adam43]

Shouldn't that point be in the other thread - I've just made it there. Although my point was along the lines of how can someone winning make a mockery of a sport.

[Razzzor]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/videos/40...rnando-alonso/

In that vid I see mark went running out there waving his hands to stop Alonso, so it was all on Mark. Alonso was probably never planning on stopping.

[Marbot]

Webber probably couldn't give a Monkeys about F1 any more and will probably pick up another 10 place grid penalty between now and the Korean GP.

It was harsh on the Hulk, but stewards is stewards and rules is rules.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Webber probably couldn't give a Monkeys about F1 any more and will probably pick up another 10 place grid penalty between now and the Korean GP.

It was harsh on the Hulk, but stewards is stewards and rules is rules.

Not all stewards would do that in that way so I don't accept that, and the old adage "rules are made to be broken" becomes appropriate when rules become an authoritarian sanction imposed without consideration of the
situation or the general appropriateness of such an action (the sanction) in the circumstances surrounding the action.

If there had been a clear rule that stopping on the track to pick up a competitor after event finished then a response to impose a penalty on the driver who stopped would be appropriate. Here we have a reprimand for both drivers but because the reprimand is the third for the person picked up he gets a grid penalty that affects his future race event. And this is for an action that occurred outside the competitive sporting event (it was technically over) Its an ethical nonsense in terms of a just and fair penalty for the offence.

Sorry but its actually poor stewarding.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

And this is for an action that occurred outside the competitive sporting event (it was technically over) Its an ethical nonsense in terms of a just and fair penalty for the offence.

I loathe the imposition of this penalty emotionally, but I think the issue here is that the event was not technically over. That is not the case until the last car enters parc ferme - it is Mark's presence on the track without permission before this point that is at heart.

In the end, the rules were applied here. I don't agree with the automatic 3 strikes rule, but that's ultimately the fault of the rulemakers, not the stewards.

Hulk's penalty, now that one I put on the stewards' back!

[Paradise City]

The way Webber strode onto the middle of the track was very dangerous. Hambo nearly swiped him. I wouldn't absolve Webber. Webber seems to be in a romantic mood now that his F1 career is coming to a close. The point about not giving him a competitive penalty is well taken but giving him a kicking financial fine would be proper IMO.

I think if Alonso had of spotted Webber in advance, drove onto the run-off in comparative safety and picked up Webber, then levy a small fine essentially overlooking it would be a just response but Webber's antics in Singapore reminded me of some of the deadly antics during the 70's and we do not want that.

[Spritle]

First impressions are hard to get over…

The problem with the Alonso Taxi Service incident was most of us saw Mark riding with Fernando along with some “aw shucks, isn’t that a nice gesture from Alonso” commentary. Admit it, how many of you thought exactly that?

Then comes the video of Mark running out and Freddy the Cabbie stopping on a blind corner and the reaction is, “holy $#!+, what were they thinking!?”

I feel bad for Mark but if we saw the “pick-up" first, the outrage of the grid penalty would be considerably diminished. I do think it was fun to see but as daft as changing a tyre on the hard shoulder of the A537.

[bella]

i must be the only person in the universe who hasn't seen the taxi thing or any of the cctv.

would it be acceptable if a marshal was out on track in dark overalls without warning like it sounds as if webber was? especially if (and i haven't seen if this is true or not) another driver had to change direction to avoid hitting him? no? then he deserved his slap on the wrist and resulting cumulative penalty.

[SWCRacing]

My god, there is some top stuff in this thread!!

Webber was punished for a breach of Sporting Reg 30.9.b, in that he did not get permission from the marshal to enter the circuit. He has even admitted on his twitter account that he did not speak to a marashal

Alonso was punished for breaching Sporting Reg 43.3, specifically not getting back to the pits "without unnecessary delay"

Both got reprimands, webber had previous, therefore 10 place penalty

Simples.... Read and UNDERSTAND the regulations

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Not all stewards would do that in that way so I don't accept that, and the old adage "rules are made to be broken" becomes appropriate when rules become an authoritarian sanction imposed without consideration of the
situation or the general appropriateness of such an action (the sanction) in the circumstances surrounding the action.

If there had been a clear rule that stopping on the track to pick up a competitor after event finished then a response to impose a penalty on the driver who stopped would be appropriate. Here we have a reprimand for both drivers but because the reprimand is the third for the person picked up he gets a grid penalty that affects his future race event. And this is for an action that occurred outside the competitive sporting event (it was technically over) Its an ethical nonsense in terms of a just and fair penalty for the offence.

Sorry but its actually poor stewarding.

I'm not sure we need a specific rule to say randomly stopping on the racing line just after a corner or running into the middle of a live track is a bad thing. Perhaps the rules makers give too much credit to them!

As to your first point, to be it looks like they did apply it appropriately. Having said that I'm not against the punishment being a fine instead. However this does at least have real impact unlike a fine.

[BSchneiderFan]

The rules are the rules, the drivers know that, and they have been scrupulously and correctly applied. But I do still feel uneasy about applying sporting penalties for non-sporting offences.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

But I do still feel uneasy about applying sporting penalties for non-sporting offences.

The sporting penalty was only given because the previous two were sporting offences.

[Paulaweybridge]

I expect Mark can't wait now to walk away from F1 ...

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Regardless of whether it was the first or third reprimand such activity has been done before with no penalty.
If there is a rule about it then a warning followed by a fine but to disadvantage a driver for a non competitive offence with a penalty that affects the grid (competition) is pure *********. It is just wrong, judicially and in terms of sporting fairness.

Its rubbish.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by garcon

The sporting penalty was only given because the previous two were sporting offences.

That logic doesn't stack up.

If it was a non sporting offences it should have been dealt with separately.

However, having seen the video of the incident and heard Lewis' comment perhaps it was not such a bad decision.

Complete stupidity!

Webber should have known better, and I think that Alonso was just surprised by his "friend" into participating, or thought he could score destabilizing points against RBR.

[321Go]

Forget the taxi, someone call a bus please!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cykz...ature=youtu.be