Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17 Jan 2005, 21:35 (Ref:1203275)   #1
DKGandBH
Veteran
 
DKGandBH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Sydney, Australia
Posts: 511
DKGandBH has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
New Rules - Discussion

Just a question,

Why should changes to the rules specifically benefit the lower funded teams ?

There has been a lot of "discussion" over the various rule changes (and voluntary restrictions) and how they should help the lower teams and restrict the higer funded teams.

This to me seems a but "ass backward" in that the lower funded teams should have to perform above their perceived level and get greater funding in the future, not give them an artificial performance gain...

DKGandBH
DKGandBH is offline  
__________________
Look at my web page...
Quote
Old 17 Jan 2005, 22:11 (Ref:1203306)   #2
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
This sounds like one for Red, but not one for Paul Stoddart!
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 17 Jan 2005, 22:59 (Ref:1203336)   #3
DKGandBH
Veteran
 
DKGandBH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Sydney, Australia
Posts: 511
DKGandBH has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Adam, if you are inferring that I am a Ferrari Supporter and not a Paul Stoddart fan, then you would be partially correct...

I like Ferrari, but I don't like to see them dominate as they are, I just don't understand why they should effectively be penalised for excessive funding...

It is true that I don't like PS anymore. I used to, especially when he ponied up and saved Minardi. But now, it seems to me, that he did it more for the overall financial benefit, rather than trying to save the icon that Minardi was.

I still like seing a Minardi in front of another car, and that is what I am talking about...
If Minardi can beat any other team, I am happy, but I don't want this to happen solely due to regulation changes...

DKGandBH
DKGandBH is offline  
__________________
Look at my web page...
Quote
Old 17 Jan 2005, 23:07 (Ref:1203341)   #4
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
Can I just ask while this thread is still young, what happens with the tyres during 2005 if we get a dry / wet / dry race?

Last edited by Sodemo; 17 Jan 2005 at 23:07.
Sodemo is online now  
Quote
Old 17 Jan 2005, 23:23 (Ref:1203353)   #5
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKGandBH
Adam, if you are inferring that I am a Ferrari Supporter and not a Paul Stoddart fan, then you would be partially correct...
I meant more that some of the things you say sound like our friend and 10 Tenths member Red would have said them, the opposite view being that of Paul Stoddarts.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 17 Jan 2005, 23:49 (Ref:1203362)   #6
bosch!
Veteran
 
bosch!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
New Zealand-Maori
GodZone
Posts: 531
bosch! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well its a sport and a Business. People dont want to watch a sport if the same team is going to win again and again and again with no competition.

Business dictates that you make money if you win and you win if you make money. If you dont win you get out. So poorly funded teams are in a vicious circle of not getting results and so getting less funding and getting worse results.

The only organisations that can aford not to adhere to this business rules are the large conglomerates that get into F1 for their own reasons, ie

Ford for prestige - Got fed up with loosing and bailed
Toyota - To Beat Honda willing to pour maybe $1 billion so far for no return
BAR - To push fags
Renault - to push cleos
Stodard - Odd one out, he did it because he loved the sport but has ended up spending all the money he made by being an airline tycoon, which is a shame, and still sits on the back of the grid.

The cost of competing has ruled out team ownership for sporting purposes but in order for the sport to function it still needs to be considered a sport and not a huge branding excersize. For that it needs fans and casual viewers, for that it needs competition for that it needs the playing field to be leveled off periodically.
bosch! is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 00:19 (Ref:1203375)   #7
DKGandBH
Veteran
 
DKGandBH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Sydney, Australia
Posts: 511
DKGandBH has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosch!
poorly funded teams are in a vicious circle of not getting results and so getting less funding and getting worse results.
I don't think that this necessarily so. If a poorly funded team were to beat a more funded team into say 8th position in the WCC, then this would be a result that in itself resulted in greater sponsorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosch!
Stodard - Odd one out, he did it because he loved the sport but has ended up spending all the money he made by being an airline tycoon, which is a shame.
As I have said elsewhere, I used to believe this, now not so much.

DKGandBH
DKGandBH is offline  
__________________
Look at my web page...
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 00:21 (Ref:1203376)   #8
GP Racer
Veteran
 
GP Racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
United States
"The Big Apple"
Posts: 3,376
GP Racer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridGP Racer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Unforunatly, the difference between the have's and the have nots, has gotten so big, that the only way to have something resembling competition is to unfairly penalize the big guys.

I'm not sure I agree with this strategy, but I can understand why F1, like so many other series and sports, would do this. It's called parity here in the States, and its about evening up the competition, thereby making it more exciting to more fans. It's worked wonders for NASCAR, the IRL, Grand Am and even the NFL(football). Without some changes, teams like Minardi, and Jordan will fall further and further behind, until they are a complete joke, and it would be glaringly obvious to all that they don't belong in F1 anymore. Actually, there pretty close now!
GP Racer is offline  
__________________
"I don't feel insecure about 'being girlie'. I do as much media as I can because I want this IRL series to be so kick-butt that NASCAR goes, 'Huh?'"

Danica Patrick
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 00:30 (Ref:1203379)   #9
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
The odd thing is that the grid from front to rear is actually close in terms of times. The difference is that now everyone is consistent with it. Race pace is relative to Qualifying pace now, which wasn't always the case. Over a sprint stint there is less change in the relative performance of the cars pace. Everyone is so much more professional now that most teams have a race sussed and do it as quick as they can.

As for achieving 'parity'. When the fastest runners in the Olympics run with lead ballast to even things up I might get to considering that a good idea for F1.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 00:36 (Ref:1203382)   #10
Kirk
Veteran
 
Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,043
Kirk has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
The question of whether the new rules, specifically the V8 configuration, will help the lower funded teams has been debated before. Theoretically, in my view, initially the high budget teams will have the edge for the simple reason that they will have more resources to develop the new motor.... but after the transition, say a season or so, the playing field should even out somewhat as lower budget teams catch up. We may also get a few more engine suppliers involved which could increase competiton and lower costs. All in all, I think 5 years down the road, if we look back, we will conclude that the V8 did accomplish what was intended.
Kirk is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 02:59 (Ref:1203448)   #11
hgmonaro
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Melb
Posts: 404
hgmonaro should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Once upon a time, a lowly team could invent something to jump them up the grid, maybe even to the front and attract interest in the team, maybe even sponsorship. The rules are now so strict that that can't happen.
hgmonaro is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 04:34 (Ref:1203481)   #12
DKGandBH
Veteran
 
DKGandBH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Sydney, Australia
Posts: 511
DKGandBH has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
HG...I totally agree with you !

I don't want "Parity" I want the flexability that the teams can come up with something new...

DKGandBH

Last edited by DKGandBH; 18 Jan 2005 at 04:35.
DKGandBH is offline  
__________________
Look at my web page...
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 08:08 (Ref:1203546)   #13
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKGandBH

It is true that I don't like PS anymore. I used to, especially when he ponied up and saved Minardi. But now, it seems to me, that he did it more for the overall financial benefit,

I really don't believe Paul Stoddard has profited from owning Minardi.

Quite the reverse, in fact.

Which makes him still being there all the more admirable.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 08:54 (Ref:1203569)   #14
bosch!
Veteran
 
bosch!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
New Zealand-Maori
GodZone
Posts: 531
bosch! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by hgmonaro
Once upon a time, a lowly team could invent something to jump them up the grid, maybe even to the front and attract interest in the team, maybe even sponsorship. The rules are now so strict that that can't happen.
Yes, like ground effect or the tyrell high nose. As most development is done by 1,000,000 mips of microchip monkeys working 24/7 all possibilities are covered and they are dealing with fine details of known solutions.

What was the last truly radical F1 inovation?
bosch! is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 09:36 (Ref:1203604)   #15
1200Datto27
Veteran
 
1200Datto27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Australia
Croydon
Posts: 1,534
1200Datto27 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
The Walrus?
1200Datto27 is offline  
__________________
Mos Eisley spaceport, A more wretched hive of scum and villiany you will not find anywhere in the galaxy, we must be careful.
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 10:08 (Ref:1203638)   #16
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Front Torque transfer system on the BAR last year? Although that was a development of an idea used by Benetton a few years ago.

I suspect that the inards of a lot of the gearbox's may be radical, but we wouldn't get to see.

However what is radical? Are we looking for rear engines, turbos, engine as a stressed memember, ground effects, active suspension? Well they only come a long once every ten or so years anyway (and have already been thought of).
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 10:21 (Ref:1203646)   #17
Raglanparade
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Australia
Posts: 2,382
Raglanparade should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I would say the bullet-proof engine block that Ferrari has been using the last couple of years would be the most recent innovation.

The Walrus was good, but it didnt acheive anything.

Torque Transfer was outlawed before it was raced.

With the raising of the front wing, it will be interesting to see if any teams go back to the nose being connected to the front wings like the Ferrari's from the early 90's.

You should be able to run different engines at different weight levels.

eg. V12 at 700kgs, V10 at 650kgs, v8 at 600kgs, v6 at 500kgs... etc.

this would ensure variation from GP to GP
Raglanparade is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 10:21 (Ref:1203648)   #18
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1200Datto27
The Walrus?
Not really inovative,just another variation on a theme,what we would have seen if the rules had been left alone is that eventually after a few years despite some teams having bigger budgets is basically all the teams ending up with pretty much the same thing just the teams who are better off will get there sooner and you reach a point where you have to spend upteen millions just to find a thousandth of a second over the opposition(deminishing returns syndrome).So a change of rules may allow 1 clever team(Ferrari)to come up with something that the other teams don't have,not really seen anything yet that would make me not want to drive for Ferrari.P.S. that last remark made me think of a well known Kylie Minogue song.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 10:39 (Ref:1203657)   #19
Red
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Romania
Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 5,867
Red should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Adam is wise! DK, those are precisely my sentiments too! Cheers!

PS: I'm not sure if Paul Stoddard profited as well, but that's a only a detail. He wanted to invest in F1 because he saw it as good business. Not for the love of sport. If he lost (not at all sure about that either) - though luck for him.
Red is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 10:46 (Ref:1203662)   #20
BootsOntheSide
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
England
Eastbourne, England
Posts: 13,000
BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk
The question of whether the new rules, specifically the V8 configuration, will help the lower funded teams has been debated before. Theoretically, in my view, initially the high budget teams will have the edge for the simple reason that they will have more resources to develop the new motor.... but after the transition, say a season or so, the playing field should even out somewhat as lower budget teams catch up. We may also get a few more engine suppliers involved which could increase competiton and lower costs.
Which engine manufacturers are realistically likely to enter? Virtually every major car company is involved in F1 at present, it's more likely that we would see further pullouts.

Teams catch up over time when the rules are stable, not after major changes. The gaps between teams aren't really the problem, but (as mentioned) the fact that they're in roughly the same order every time, and can't overtake easily enough thanks to the aerodynamics.
BootsOntheSide is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 10:49 (Ref:1203666)   #21
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quick quiz:
Who said "the only way to make a small fortune out of motor-racing is to start with a large fortune". (paraphrased?)
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 10:59 (Ref:1203671)   #22
Red
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Romania
Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 5,867
Red should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think Ferdinand Porsche is credited for that one. Anyway, it's a very old saying. That wasn't accurate in modern Formula 1, especially when Paul Stoddard decided to buy Minardi. To quote him, he 'invested because it was booming business'. I wouldn't deny that he loves the sport, this is extremely accurate. But he didn't buy Minardi because he wanted to rescue them; he bought it because it was cheap and he really though he'll get a large fortune.
Red is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 11:11 (Ref:1203676)   #23
Nicholosophy
Veteran
 
Nicholosophy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Australia
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,120
Nicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red
But he didn't buy Minardi because he wanted to rescue them; he bought it because it was cheap and he really though he'll get a large fortune.
And if Minardi were a mid-field team fighting for podiums then we'd all be cheering him and saying what a great job he's done.

Instead we bag him out, he gets sick of the negative press and leaves, and one more team down the drain...
Nicholosophy is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 11:21 (Ref:1203679)   #24
Red
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Romania
Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 5,867
Red should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yes, I'd cheer him if he does a great job instead whining.
Red is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2005, 12:48 (Ref:1203724)   #25
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAshmore
Quick quiz:
Who said "the only way to make a small fortune out of motor-racing is to start with a large fortune". (paraphrased?)
Frank Williams?
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mid Ohio Discussion awegrzyn Sportscar & GT Racing 15 11 May 2005 16:41
Surprised there's no discussion of LFS on here Mik Virtual Racers 24 24 Oct 2003 15:54


All times are GMT. The time now is 18:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.