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Old 12 Jan 2012, 22:41 (Ref:3010941)   #1
Racenut
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GT3 vs GTE Cost

I have read comments on this forum that there is a big difference in cost between the two categories (development and running), why is that? What is different with GTE that costs a lot more than GT3?

Apart from the obvious aero (flat floor) and smaller restricters what is different?
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Old 12 Jan 2012, 22:45 (Ref:3010943)   #2
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Basically, the GTE-rules are very strict and every gain in speed comes at a relatively high price as builders have to weasel their way around the rules - in GT3 you can take shortcuts, use production parts and stuff like that and get a car up to speed relatively cheaply.

The downside is that there is no actual ruleset, so it all hinges on the effectiveness of the BoP, whereas GTE - at least before waiver-mania - rewarded the ingeniuity of the engineering staff to a much larger degree.
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Old 12 Jan 2012, 22:48 (Ref:3010949)   #3
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the other point to potential manufacturers, and the reason GTE will likely die out in its current form, is that the GT3 formula has been successful around the world and there are numerous national and international markets to sell your wares in. With GTE, you're effectively limited to a few big international championships and a few run-what-you-bring national series for second-hand kit.
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Old 12 Jan 2012, 23:33 (Ref:3010963)   #4
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If you want manufactuers involved in GT racng, rather than only building cars for customers, you have to have a clear ruleset, GTE is merely a name, the regs can be tweaked or even re-written entirely to deal with future challenges such as changing road car trends.

On paper GT3 should be the perfect customer sportscar class but rules creep requires teams to upgrade their cars each season to remain competitive, a great many GT3 cars built down the years have simply gone by the wayside. GT3's big advantage is the classes popularity at national level, but as costs rise it's logical there'll be a gradual shift to GT4, leaving GT3 as predominantly an international class like GTE.
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Old 13 Jan 2012, 00:07 (Ref:3010972)   #5
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but as costs rise it's logical there'll be a gradual shift to GT4, leaving GT3 as predominantly an international class like GTE.
There will eventually be a shift away from GT3, but no way in he** will the replacement be GT4... I think what we'll see is closer to a GT3 'reboot', i.e. back to the Cup-cars as a performance benchmark, like in the LMS' new GTC-category. Or alternatively a period of a more run-what-you-brung kind, but not GT4, apart from perhaps British GT there is almost no momentum at all in that class.
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Old 13 Jan 2012, 00:35 (Ref:3010976)   #6
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just to say one thing, some years ago the gt4 cars basicly were road cars with rollbar inside the cockpit, motec on the s.wheel and slick tyres! now also gt4 class is evolving with more race born cars like ginetta g50, RJN 370z or maserati gran turismo, but however the difference of performance is an abyss.... a lot of times i'm very disappointed about the presence of this class in blancpain or other national gt champs, because a lot of times gt4 cars are just running chicanes for faster gt3 cars.

Coming back in topic, the question is simple, because of world economic recession and the beginning of death of GT1 class in 2009, actually manufacters like bmw, corvette, ferrari and aston martin use GTE cars for their work/official teams. For this reason the development of these cars is running wildly (with increasing costs) with timelaps that are getting close if not faster sometimes than the old GT1 cars (in my opinion the same performance level of 2008 LM GT1 class won't be never reached with GTE cars).

GT3 philosophy is different, are cars that even if recently have been hugely developed with performances similiar to GTE cars, share a lot of parts with street model car (GTE use racing engines that almost doesn't share a thing with road derivatedm GT3 uses at least the 70% or more parts of the road engine car). While GTE cars are used for work teams, usually manufacters build GT3 cars for selling to private teams.

So making an example:
458 GTC price is 480.000 $
458 GT3 price is 340.000 $

beyond the car price, the maintenance of a GT3 car because of quality/road derivated parts is much more cheaper than a GTE one. For sure in 2011 was easier and cheaper to keep the maintenance of a GT1 car (if spare parts were available...) than a GTE.

If i remember well, the highest price of a GT3 car is the one of the SLS, around 400.000€
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Old 13 Jan 2012, 00:54 (Ref:3010981)   #7
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Originally Posted by alexkiller8 View Post
just to say one thing, some years ago the gt4 cars basicly were road cars with rollbar inside the cockpit, motec on the s.wheel and slick tyres! now also gt4 class is evolving with more race born cars like ginetta g50, RJN 370z or maserati gran turismo, but however the difference of performance is an abyss.... a lot of times i'm very disappointed about the presence of this class in blancpain or other national gt champs, because a lot of times gt4 cars are just running chicanes for faster gt3 cars.

Coming back in topic, the question is simple, because of world economic recession and the beginning of death of GT1 class in 2009, actually manufacters like bmw, corvette, ferrari and aston martin use GTE cars for their work/official teams. For this reason the development of these cars is running wildly (with increasing costs) with timelaps that are getting close if not faster sometimes than the old GT1 cars (in my opinion the same performance level of 2008 LM GT1 class won't be never reached with GTE cars).

GT3 philosophy is different, are cars that even if recently have been hugely developed with performances similiar to GTE cars, share a lot of parts with street model car (GTE use racing engines that almost doesn't share a thing with road derivatedm GT3 uses at least the 70% or more parts of the road engine car). While GTE cars are used for work teams, usually manufacters build GT3 cars for selling to private teams.

So making an example:
458 GTC price is 480.000 $
458 GT3 price is 340.000 $

beyond the car price, the maintenance of a GT3 car because of quality/road derivated parts is much more cheaper than a GTE one. For sure in 2011 was easier and cheaper to keep the maintenance of a GT1 car (if spare parts were available...) than a GTE.

If i remember well, the highest price of a GT3 car is the one of the SLS, around 400.000€
$340,000 sounds cheap for a Ferrari GT3, where do you get one of them? and what is on the option list? engine, dampers...
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Old 13 Jan 2012, 01:22 (Ref:3010987)   #8
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$340,000 sounds cheap for a Ferrari GT3, where do you get one of them? and what is on the option list? engine, dampers...
I seem to remember hearing that the Mclaren has a higher price than some of the other GT3 cars, but it comes with everything you need to go racing. In other words, you get a cheaper car from other manufacturers but have to buy extras and spares and such. Don't recall any pricing though.

The new Audi R8 LMS Ultra has a sticker price over $445,000.
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Old 13 Jan 2012, 03:25 (Ref:3010997)   #9
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$340,000 sounds cheap for a Ferrari GT3, where do you get one of them? and what is on the option list? engine, dampers...
Kessel sells them apparently. http://www.kesselracing.ch/products/....php/homepage/
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Old 13 Jan 2012, 10:59 (Ref:3011098)   #10
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kessel produced and sold the 430 gt3 scuderia, michelotto sells the 458 gte and gtc.

Reading to kessel site is written that the 458 gtc reach max power at 6250 with a rev limit of around 6500 i guess, i knew about that but i thougth that at least the car could touche the 7000rpm, i ask my self how can be competitive that car if other cars like bmw have more or less the same torque but much higher revlimit.

Last edited by alexkiller8; 13 Jan 2012 at 11:05.
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Old 18 Jan 2012, 00:31 (Ref:3013143)   #11
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The GT3 europe site has the ferrari at 350000 euro
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Old 18 Jan 2012, 12:14 (Ref:3013373)   #12
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Originally Posted by alexkiller8 View Post
Reading to kessel site is written that the 458 gtc reach max power at 6250 with a rev limit of around 6500 i guess, i knew about that but i thougth that at least the car could touche the 7000rpm, i ask my self how can be competitive that car if other cars like bmw have more or less the same torque but much higher revlimit.
Well the Ferrari would be more competitive at the tighter, twistier tracks like Navarra where as at the fast, flowing tracks like Spa, it would be slighty slower.
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Old 18 Jan 2012, 12:38 (Ref:3013385)   #13
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but in the reality almost all 458 GTC were faster than the m3gt at spa this year!
by the way the 458 GT3 2012 model will be lighter than the 2011 one (dry weight decreased to 1215kg now) for this reason is 10000€ more expensive i think
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Old 1 Feb 2012, 16:30 (Ref:3019875)   #14
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I have another question on GTE and GT3. As far as I know, one of the main reasons the ACO and IMSA don't want to allow GT3 cars is because of the driving aids.

But John Dagys says about the Audi R8 that "the Grand-Am variant has some notable differences, including a thicker roll cage, reduction in horsepower and lack of ABS and traction control".

It that's true, then how about ACO and IMSA allow these GrandT3 cars?
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Old 1 Feb 2012, 16:38 (Ref:3019879)   #15
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I have another question on GTE and GT3. As far as I know, one of the main reasons the ACO and IMSA don't want to allow GT3 cars is because of the driving aids.

But John Dagys says about the Audi R8 that "the Grand-Am variant has some notable differences, including a thicker roll cage, reduction in horsepower and lack of ABS and traction control".

It that's true, then how about ACO and IMSA allow these GrandT3 cars?
Grand-Amised GT3s would be slow a hell compared to GTEs. Which I guess wouldn't that bad of an issue really.

I think one of the real reasons ACO doesn't really wanna touch GT3 is, you guessed it, performance balancing. ELMS organizers were asked last year on why were they planning to introduce GTC class instead of full GT3, and the answer was "balance of performance would be a nightmare".

Also, right now ACO doesn't need GT3, GT2 is perfectly fine as it is.
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Old 1 Feb 2012, 17:03 (Ref:3019884)   #16
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i see in the future the entry of GT3 cars in ACO competitions, it will happen when actual GTE/2 cars will become expensive GT1 style cars with more powerfull engines and advanced bodywork, that will be run just by work or official teams, then GT3 cars will become cheaper GT2 cars but with standardized specs as happen now in GTE so not anymore bop.
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